I am uber grateful for my newly acquired, and apparently extremely rare, Joseph: King of Dreams soundtrack. You may have picked that up from my previous post. Aside from the beauty of the music, John Bucchino writes wonderful, meaningful lyrics. So, I have to share the song Bloom. It occurs twice in the movie, once sung by Joseph's mother and later by his wife. In each case, these women are calling Joseph to listen to the better part of himself.
Bloom
You've seen the damage words can do,
When full of thoughtless pride,
Now heed the wiser voice in you,
That calls to be your guide,
The flowers reaching for the sun are all uniquely blessed,
But though each is special not a one is better than the rest
Bloom, bloom, may you know, The wisdom only time breeds,
There's room, bloom and you'll grow, To follow where your heart leads,
Bloom and may you bring, Your colours to the vast bouquet,
There's room, bloom, learn one thing,
Your gifts are meant to give away
Bloom (reprise)
How long must there be anger here,
Before we can rejoice,
Embracing love instead of fear, Is but a simple choice,
It's hard for me to see you fall, So bitter and so blind,
When the truest nature of us all,
Invites us to be kind,
Bloom, bloom, may you know, The wisdom only time breeds,
There's room, bloom and you'll grow,
To follow where your heart leads,
Bloom and may you live, The way your life was meant to be,
There's room, bloom and forgive...
May sweet compassion set you free
Tuesday, January 17, 2012
Monday, January 16, 2012
Better Than I
I am a fan of Dreamworks' Prince of Egypt and its direct to video follow-up King of Dreams. The Prince of Egypt soundtrack was written by Stephen Schwartz and Hans Zimmer. It is a stunning soundtrack and if ever an animated movie deserved to be moved to the live stage, this one is it.
King of Dreams, its less well known sibling, also has a wonderful soundtrack. The music was written by Danny Pelfrey and John Bucchino. Unfortunately, Dreamworks never made the soundtrack available. No CD of the music was ever published.
My favorite song from the movie is "Better Than I". It is one of the finest songs of faith I have ever heard. John Bucchino included it on a compilation CD (Grateful), and though the artist from the movie does the vocals, it does not have the orchestrated music from the soundtrack. I was glad to have the version provided on Grateful, but I have always desired to have a copy of the version from the movie.
A few weeks ago, by chance, I was googling some info on the King of Dreams when I came across the soundtrack. Apparently, a few promotional copies were printed prior to the movie's release and a cd store in LA was selling their copy. The information was scant, but I figured I would roll the dice... to have an orchestrated version of Better Than I, along with the other wonderful songs from that soundtrack written by Mr. Bucchino, was worth a chance.
It came in the mail today. I rolled 7. It was exactly what I was hoping for!
King of Dreams, its less well known sibling, also has a wonderful soundtrack. The music was written by Danny Pelfrey and John Bucchino. Unfortunately, Dreamworks never made the soundtrack available. No CD of the music was ever published.
My favorite song from the movie is "Better Than I". It is one of the finest songs of faith I have ever heard. John Bucchino included it on a compilation CD (Grateful), and though the artist from the movie does the vocals, it does not have the orchestrated music from the soundtrack. I was glad to have the version provided on Grateful, but I have always desired to have a copy of the version from the movie.
A few weeks ago, by chance, I was googling some info on the King of Dreams when I came across the soundtrack. Apparently, a few promotional copies were printed prior to the movie's release and a cd store in LA was selling their copy. The information was scant, but I figured I would roll the dice... to have an orchestrated version of Better Than I, along with the other wonderful songs from that soundtrack written by Mr. Bucchino, was worth a chance.
It came in the mail today. I rolled 7. It was exactly what I was hoping for!
Sunday, January 15, 2012
Leaving The Faith
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Chris, Brandon, me, and Tony as sons of Jacob |
Since that time, he went through a period of questioning... and at the end of all of his questioning, he left the faith in which he had been raised.
With the usual excellence Brandon applies to everything he sets out to do, he wrote a detailed document about the questions, concerns, and process he experienced that ultimately led him to leave his faith.
Though Brandon chronicles his thoughts and exit from Mormonism, I believe his story is an important read that would apply to anyone dealing with faith issues. The themes and questions he addresses are universal; as I read I found myself repeatedly saying, "Yes!" "Exactly" "Did that!" "Me too!" What he experienced, and his reasons for leaving, so often mirrored my own exit from Christianity.
What Brandon has done, which I and many others who have left our faith have not, is give a detailed account of the progression and reasoning. In addition... he is absolutely graceful about it. Something I have not always been good about.
Here is a quote from his document that I completely resonate with. I think religious people would find it counter-intuitive, but it is a common thread amongst those who leave their faith:
"(Having left the church) I don’t judge people as much. I can look at somebody and be their friend without having to worry about their salvation, or somehow steering the conversation toward the church to help them find the “right” path. Consequently, my relationships are now more genuine, and I am filled with more love for people, regardless of their religion, sexual orientation, or race. It’s also easier to make new friends."
So go to his blog here and look for the PDF at the bottom of the article.
Nicely explained my friend; peace with your continued journey.
Shallow Understanding From People of Good Will
If you have never read Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter from a Birmingham Jail", let me encourage you to do so in honor of this MLK day. It is as profound as any work of poetry, and as cutting as the words of any prophets in the scriptures. Truth is timeless, and the words expressed in this letter apply to us as much now as they did then.
I did not read this letter until I was in my 40s. I had been in Christian churches for 30 years... and this letter was never part of my spiritual education. I believe Rev. King describes many of our churches, and their lack of education at the congregational level, when he speaks of "shallow understanding from people of good will" in the following quote:
"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured."
I did not read this letter until I was in my 40s. I had been in Christian churches for 30 years... and this letter was never part of my spiritual education. I believe Rev. King describes many of our churches, and their lack of education at the congregational level, when he speaks of "shallow understanding from people of good will" in the following quote:
"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured."
Saturday, January 14, 2012
Fundraising Post
Dear Friends and Family,
My daughter, Kathryn, is part of the Wasatch Youth Ensemble, which is “a high energy group of young violinists.” She rehearses weekly and practices nightly for a string of performances which will begin this spring. Her last half dozen shows will be performed in Hawaii. To that end, she and her ensemble are actively participating in many fund raising activities to pay for their trip.
One of those fundraisers involves selling the Dominos Pizza “Delivering the Dough” cards. Each card has 10 “Buy One Get One Free” cards. They are:
4- Buy one pizza at menu price and receive one pizza of equal or lesser value free.
6—Buy one large pizza at menu price and receive one medium one topping pizza free.
All of the coupons on the card are good until 12-31-13
Cards are $10 and funds from the cards purchased from us will go directly toward Kathryn’s trip. Don’t feel any obligation, but if you are a pizza person, consider that this card will give value to your pizza habit while supporting a good cause.
If you know us locally, you can buy the cards from us when you see us. If you are out of state, you can purchase one through the secure Paypal link below (you do not have to have a Paypal account, you can check out as a guest) or you can mail me a check. In either case, we will get it mailed out to you right away. Thank You!
Wednesday, January 11, 2012
Being Human: S2 US S4 UK
Which one you ask? UK or US?
All of it!
I do not understand the need of some fans to pick one or the other. Either/or, team thinking is so limiting.
I enjoy the gritty, more earthy version that has been for running for three seasons in the UK. I enjoy the more polished, nuanced version that started last year here in the US. The web mini-series Becoming Human was a treat (one I hope they further pursue). I even enjoyed the original pilot which was done sometime before the series with different actors.
Over the past few weeks, I have been re-watching both versions of Being Human courtesy of Netflix. This week, the US will start its second season on Syfy. Later this month the UK will be ramping up their 4th season with an almost entirely new cast.
To introduce the new vampire in the UK series, the BBC released this short prequel story. I think it is going to be a good season.
Saturday, January 07, 2012
Hate To Agree With Santorum, But...
Ouch, hate to be on the same page as Santorum, but I find myself agreeing with him. This week on the campaign trail he said:
I was so outraged by the president of the United States for standing up and saying every child in America should go to college. Well who are you? Who are you to say that every child in America should [go to college]? I mean, the hubris of this president to think that he knows what's best.
I have seven kids. Maybe they will all go to college. But if one of my kids wants to go and be an auto-mechanic, good for him. That's a good paying job: using your hands, using your mind. This is the kind of snobbery that we see from those who think they know how to run our lives. Rise up America, defend your own freedoms. And overthrow these folks who think they know how to orchestrate every aspect of your lives.
I think his "outrage" is feigned, and needlessly over-dramatic. I also think his argument exists within a larger narrative that is anti-science and anti-public education; but on this quote alone I will agree with him.
There is a mis-perception in America regarding college. I am an academic. I love books, reading, and writing. I am fascinated by a well nuanced lecture. However, my interests represent a mere slice of the interests and predilections of human beings.
Many of America's schools seem to have a singular mantra - you are an academic, or you just aren't that smart. All of our efforts and target goals seem to orbit one focal point - push everyone toward academic excellence.
And the non-academics? Well, you can just spend a dozen or so years in the schools feeling inferior.
Or, maybe Santorum has a point. Maybe someone does not have to be an academic to be smart. I wrote a blog describing how my father is infinitely more intelligent than me when it comes to constructive and kinesthetic work. He never went to college, yet he ran a successful carpet business from his home for decades which provided a comfortable suburban life for his family.
In my 21 years of teaching, I have watched as academically inclined children are praised and thought of as "good" or "talented", while students who dream of art, and building, and the outdoors are often seen as anchors; a child who is masterful at art, but scores low on state testing will not be seen as an asset. We have a one track system that plays to our citizens who will take up jobs in "book-learning" fields, but we have little to offer kids in the classroom who enjoy working on cars.
I have a friend who left college after one year. He had his fill of classwork in high school. However, he was always a gifted people-person and not one to shy away from a good day's work. He climbed up the corporate management ladder and easily makes triple what I do.
I have another friend who loved outdoor construction and landscape work. However, due to parent and societal pressure, he got his degree and entered the office work force. He now makes good money working a job that is very respectable... that he hates.
I don't blame the schools for their part in this. They are merely reflecting and executing the corporate, bottom-line, widget making mentality that has been forced on them by the wielders of big money - and a society that has become geared toward consumption rather than creativity.
Monday, January 02, 2012
Christian No More
I often get asked the question as to whether or not I consider myself a Christian anymore. This is sometimes asked with curiosity, but more often than not it is asked with concern or chagrin. The concern part, in its better moments, is based on a fear of my spending eternity roasting... and since the person asking the question likes me, they would rather that fate not be mine.
However, it never ceases to be comical to me how often the question is founded in chagrin - the questioner is frustrated that I do not seem to find compelling or conceivable a position they have claimed. My choosing a stance that is contrary to the one they cling to, somehow, gets translated as a criticism.
Quite confounding.
The short answer to the question is no. I really don't consider myself a Christian anymore. Somewhere along the way (to be explained in more detail in a future blog post), I realized that the claims of my religious beliefs had no more inherent validity than anyone else's. Once the light bulb goes on that your group sounds to every other group the way every other group sounds to yours... and that REALLY sinks in... well, it's all up hill from there.
I tried to explain my perspective to a relative recently - that scripture has become to me a sequence of testimonies by people I don't know, having been retold and then copied by people I don't know, in a time with different values than mine. Not that it cannot give valuable perspectives, but it can't help but be hearsay. Given that, it is hard for me to know what to think of God - in 28 years of pursuing him, I've never heard from him.
The response? - Of course you have! It's in the bible!
Sigh....
So where does that leave me now? I could probably be best described as a hopeful agnostic. Sure, I hope we go on. Who wouldn't? But for right now, what concerns me most is impacting my world around me - loving others, making the world a better place for everyone, and giving my life to friends and family.
I read the following quote in the book Good Omens this morning and I laughed out loud. In a way, it captures how I feel about the unknowable reality of God.
God does not play dice with the universe:
He plays an ineffable game of His own devising,
which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody],
to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker
in a pitch-dark room,
with blank cards,
for infinite stakes,
with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules,
and who smiles all the time.
However, it never ceases to be comical to me how often the question is founded in chagrin - the questioner is frustrated that I do not seem to find compelling or conceivable a position they have claimed. My choosing a stance that is contrary to the one they cling to, somehow, gets translated as a criticism.
Quite confounding.
The short answer to the question is no. I really don't consider myself a Christian anymore. Somewhere along the way (to be explained in more detail in a future blog post), I realized that the claims of my religious beliefs had no more inherent validity than anyone else's. Once the light bulb goes on that your group sounds to every other group the way every other group sounds to yours... and that REALLY sinks in... well, it's all up hill from there.
I tried to explain my perspective to a relative recently - that scripture has become to me a sequence of testimonies by people I don't know, having been retold and then copied by people I don't know, in a time with different values than mine. Not that it cannot give valuable perspectives, but it can't help but be hearsay. Given that, it is hard for me to know what to think of God - in 28 years of pursuing him, I've never heard from him.
The response? - Of course you have! It's in the bible!
Sigh....
So where does that leave me now? I could probably be best described as a hopeful agnostic. Sure, I hope we go on. Who wouldn't? But for right now, what concerns me most is impacting my world around me - loving others, making the world a better place for everyone, and giving my life to friends and family.
I read the following quote in the book Good Omens this morning and I laughed out loud. In a way, it captures how I feel about the unknowable reality of God.
God does not play dice with the universe:
He plays an ineffable game of His own devising,
which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody],
to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker
in a pitch-dark room,
with blank cards,
for infinite stakes,
with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules,
and who smiles all the time.
Saturday, December 31, 2011
The Problem of Multiple Choice
Vocabulary Question:
I ______________ the memories of my Grandmother.
A. hoist
B. contract
C. cherish
D. avoid
This question is given on a professionally created, state purchased test (I just corrected it). Which did you answer? Were there any other possibilities?
How many students have been judged to have not understood the vocabulary, when in fact they understood it very well? Perhaps in seeing two possible answers, the student understands the use of vocabulary better than the professional who designed this question. It is often the case that one economic class tends to select one answer, while another class selects the other.
I see this kind of thing all the time when my students are state testing - questions that have multiple correct answers, depending on the view of the reader. If the question writers tend to think in either/or terms and lack the empathy to perceive another perspective, it is easy for them to create many questions such as the one above.
There is value in multiple choice tests. But presently, the success or failure of a school rests entirely on the results of a few multiple choice tests, given over the course of a week in late Spring.
I ______________ the memories of my Grandmother.
A. hoist
B. contract
C. cherish
D. avoid
This question is given on a professionally created, state purchased test (I just corrected it). Which did you answer? Were there any other possibilities?
How many students have been judged to have not understood the vocabulary, when in fact they understood it very well? Perhaps in seeing two possible answers, the student understands the use of vocabulary better than the professional who designed this question. It is often the case that one economic class tends to select one answer, while another class selects the other.
I see this kind of thing all the time when my students are state testing - questions that have multiple correct answers, depending on the view of the reader. If the question writers tend to think in either/or terms and lack the empathy to perceive another perspective, it is easy for them to create many questions such as the one above.
There is value in multiple choice tests. But presently, the success or failure of a school rests entirely on the results of a few multiple choice tests, given over the course of a week in late Spring.
Wednesday, December 28, 2011
A Conversation on Hell
Over at New Ways Forward, I entered into a discussion about Hell. I put it here since it falls in line with recent posts and it articulates more of my view on Hell.
Andrew: I find that people often have trouble moving out of an either/or paradigm. If one does not believe in an eternal hell, then one must not believe in discipline or consequence- everything becomes a free for all. I have no trouble with hell in theory, but I get tripped up over the word eternal. The way Hell is popularly articulated would fly in the face of most of the story of scripture. Any claims God would make to “Father” would be laughable. The story of the prodigal becomes pretty meaningless. God is not patient, God does not always persevere, God keeps records of wrongs, and hope dies.
Yep, I don’t think that should be the Christian story.
Grant: I find it hard to dismiss the idea that Hell exists and that some people will end up there. Although what Hell truly is, is another question. I like what Tim Keller said (following CS Lewis) – the fire imagery is probably metaphorical, but it’s a metaphor for something far worse than a literal fire. To those who follow Jesus and say “Thy will be done” God grants them eternal life. To those who refuse God allows them to continue in their chosen existence and in effect says to them “Well OK, Thy will be done”.
If Jesus said that he is the way the truth and the life, then he must in some sense have come to save people from ways that were not the way, that were contrary to truth and life. If following Jesus leads us to real life, and real truth, then other ways do not lead us there, they lead to error and death. Here is exactly where I see Hell fitting in. In choosing not to follow Jesus people are in effect choosing death over life. In short I think Hell (whatever it may end up being) is something chosen by people rather than a place people are sent to. That way I see that God wills all to be saved but some choose not to accept the offer and prefer to declare their independence from God. God loves everyone but not everyone reciprocates. God never forces people to love him. If he did, could we really call that Love? God is patient and God perseveres but he has set a time limit on his patience. Endless patience is not patience but acceptance of the way things are. God is patient but wants to give everyone a chance to respond. But He will not wait forever. Doesn’t mean he’s not patient. God does persevere, he also suffers long the sin of his creation. Hope does not die this way, it is very much alive for those who follow Jesus. There is no hope for those who chose not to follow Jesus.
There are other options I don’t know much about – annihilationism and conditional immortality are two I’d like to explore.
I’m not sure what Andrew means when he says the way hell is popularly articulated. I assume he means that people present salvation as fire insurance?
Well that’s how I see it…..
Andrew: No, wasn’t making a comment about salvation… just that most folks would say hell is a place of torment, that it is eternal, and that you only have till you die to get it right.
It may be that God set a time… 3,2,1… and the door is closed forever. However, if that is the case, he may be god… but he is no Father.
Grant: Hi Andrew, thanks for clearing that up. I hear you on that point and I suspect that many people naturally recoil from this doctrine because of the way it is presented. I was told that you never preach about Hell without a tear in your eye for obvious reasons. I suspect that many times it has been preached with air of smugness and superiority, as if the preacher was some how happy that people ended up there. I know there are also emotional issues attached with this doctrine, especially when we have close friends and family members who don’t know Christ. It’s heartbreaking to think about their fate to be honest.
But I must respectfully disagree with you on that point about God as Father. I don’t think it Hell undermines it. I don’t think your conclusion logically flows from your point about Hell. I actually think it is the other way around. If God does not have a limit on his patience and time limit for those who persistently rebel against God then he is not good and he is not just. He is also a bad father.
Would we call a man a good earthly father if he allowed his children to run wild, get into situations that harmed them and the family? Would we call him a good father if he never tried to stop the bad behavior of the child? If the Child ignored the ultimatum from the parent- stop this or face the consequences – would we call them a good father if they didn’t make good on their promise of punishment?
Of course we wouldn’t. We would call them a bad father. In fact we couldn’t even call them a parent. They are the servant of a child who is allowed to do what they want. They’re even worse than baby sitters. Yet this is what i see many people expecting God to do. They expect him to allow people to persist in sin, in open rebellion against him forever. Can we really call God good or Father if he allows evil to persist forever? Can we really say that God is just if he leaves evil unpunished?
While I would like all people to be given a chance to repent after death, I don’t find a lot of scriptural support for it and as such I can’t bring myself to believe it on an intellectual basis. On an emotional basis I’m holding out for it. I once heard someone say “I’m not a universalist, but God might be.” If God chooses to let everyone off the hook at the end of time, who am I to complain? It would be awesome, but I’d have a hard time understanding why God chose to forgive people like Stalin or Hitler who died unrepentant sinners.
I know I didn’t touch on the eternal side of things, and this comment is already WAAAYY too long. But let me point you to a good sermon on the topic that helped me clarify my understanding of Hell. It’s by Tim Keller – here is the link:
http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/hell-isnt-god-christianity-angry-judge
Andrew: Thanks Grant for your response. However, I still hold my position. It is common for people to believe that because I do not accept an eternal Hell, I would assume that God would be an overly indulgent Father who cannot discipline his children. I think nothing of the kind. I think God can discipline, protect, enforce rules, and do all the things a good father does without that going hand in hand with assigning a child to an eternal torture chamber with no hope of release. These are two different points, but it is a separation that most Christians have trouble seeing – let alone wrestling with. Again, I don’t think anyone will be let off the hook, I think everyone will have to come to grips with the way they have harmed others… and I don’t think they can move on until they have come to term with those realities. I don’t think anyone moves on unrepentant… But there would be no reason for a father to have a cut off point… I do not believe any parent would… however, I can completely picture an annoyed sibling desiring the father to have a cut off point…. and it is our fellow siblings who have penned and edited the scriptures. :)
Grant: Hi Andrew, thanks for the response and I still respectfully differ with you.
I do think you’ve got a lot of assumptions in your comment that are unwarranted. I’m not sure Hell is something assigned to someone as it is chosen by the person who goes there. In effect God says to that person “OK, if what you want is independence from me, then you can have it.” The person who dies with unrepentant heart simply does not want to be with Jesus following death. Note the story in the Bible of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). When the rich man dies and ends up in Hell, he first response is not “Get me out of here.” He asks Abraham for a drink to ease his burning tongue. He is content to stay there and continue his life apart from God, although he does want his stay to be somewhat more comfortable.
Let me also pose a hypothetical question to you. What if you punished, disciplined, loved, protected and enforced good rules on your own child, yet no matter what you did they continually chose to ignore you, go their own way and denounce you as their parent? What if they sought to have the legal relationship between the two of you changed so that they would never have to ever be known as your child? What if they wanted to completely and utterly declare that they had nothing to do with you? How would you feel?
Devastated to say the least. If that were me I would spend the rest of my life chasing them, pursuing them, loving them until my last breath. Yet if they constantly resisted my advances, refused to see me and consistently declared me to dead to them, what could I possibly do to make them love me? I could never force them to love me. At some point I would have to allow them to choose what they wanted to do. It would be heartbreaking (and I would spend my life pleading with them to choose differently) but if they didn’t choose to love me what could I do? I could never force them to love me. In effect they have shunned what could have been a wonderful life with healthy relationships and love, for their own independence. While it might be hard to believe this ever happening in today’s world it is exactly what we have done to God as human beings. God doesn’t want anyone to choose that sort of relationship with him, and he pursues us relentlessly, but he cannot force us to love him. Love that is forced is not love at all.
Andrew: Grant, before I continue, let me say that I appreciate your respectful dialogue. I find few people in online conversation that can hold an opposite view but resist the urge to get into taunts and jibes. Refreshing.
In response to your hypothetical question: I can imagine your scenario, and I agree that it would be hurtful and I cannot ever make my child love me. But here is where I think a Father’s response differs, as a Father, I would never refuse the return of my son. The door is not locked. My son, regardless of how he has rejected me, what he has said, what he has done, ALWAYS has an open door waiting for him.
The one thing I have realized as a parent is that I will always love my children more than they love me. This is not lack of love on their part, but surplus of love on mine. I think there are some parents who, whether consciously or unconsciously, react negatively when they discover this and because they never received a surplus of love from their parents- dysfunction begins and is perpetuated.
I think the god as described by popular Christianity, the one who sends people to Hell (no sane person chooses torture) is a bit of a dysfunctional father. He cannot abide a child not returning his love, and so the child must be punished. I think dysfunctional parenting is so common that we do not react when we see its markers being attributed to God.
I was watching the play Cinderella last night, and as I saw the step sisters desperately trying to get the glass slipper to fit, it occurred to me that this is what many Christians are trying to do with Hell. They feel that they have to believe it, so they squish and they push. They begin to attribute to god things that would be considered psychotic and evil were we to attribute them to any man. But for sake of orthodoxy we have learned to call evil good in this case. The reality is, this slipper is one that will never fit, no matter how we contort. It is better to throw it away.
Grant: Thanks for the kind words Andrew. I was watching NT Wright last night on Homosexuality and the Church. One of his main points was that we need to get to a place where we can have civilized discussion instead of a shouting match. I think that hit the nail on the head, and it could be applied to just about all controversial points of Christian doctrine. I must confess I am partial to shouting matches, so I’m glad this has not turned into one. I think back to my earlier more Pharisaical days where I regularly denounced anyone who differed with me as heretical. I have had to repent of much in my short time on the planet. So I am glad you find my tone refreshing. I aim to keep it that way.
I think we’re on a similar wavelength with the doctrine of Hell. I believe that all who want to return to God will. I’m a firm believer that God will never turn people away who want to repent, and I believe that God is sovereign in the affairs of the world to ensure that all who want to return to him will do so during the course of their lives. I would love to believe in post-mortem repentance, but I just don’t see it in the Bible. I think there are two questions here. First is the precise nature of Hell. The second is how does one end up there? While I’m not 100% sure of the precise nature of Hell, I am a little more sure that people who end up in Hell have chosen that path as I have argued in other comments.
I still find no good reason to dismiss the doctrine of hell in regards to the way I have outlined in my previous comments. I think there are far more problems with rejecting Hell than there are with accepting it. Theology is very much an interconnected web, and removing one doctrine quickly affects others. Firstly, without the reality of Hell Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross becomes incredibly ambiguous, as does the notion of salvation. Salvation denotes rescue, but what did Jesus rescue us from? In fact if God will never send anyone to Hell and will always allow people into heaven then why bother to repent and follow Jesus? Why not just do your own thing? Why not be an Atheist or a Buddhist instead? If the outcome is same for everyone irrespective of what I do on earth then what does it matter how I behave or what I believe? In effect by removing Hell we are saying “Let us do evil so that good may result.” It would be a strange and sad world where that was allowed to happen. I know God is capable of other methods of discipline and punishment, and I know not everyone would do evil so that good would result if there was no Hell. But if we will all end up in the same place and position, then what does it matter what we believe or do here on earth? If we admit that not everyone will end up in the same place then where do those who remain unrepentant before and after death go? Will they be given a chance to repent after death? I don’t see it in the Bible, as much as I would like it to be true. Yet I still see significant problems with that view. Why bother to preach that people need to repent in this life and follow Jesus if they will be given a chance in the next life? Why not do as we please and wait to repent in the next life?
I’ll finish with a comment on popular Christianity. It is by no means as homogeneous as it would appear, and often what gets media coverage are the most controversial stories. Think of how much media coverage that “God-hates-fags” church gets relative to their size. Nor is popular Christianity always the most orthodox. Joel Osteen’s health wealth and prosperity teachings are very popular with some Christians but decidedly outside the realms of orthodox Christianity. That said I do understand the damage that many popular Christian movements have caused. Think about the Left Behind books and how they popularized a rapture theology. I know because for a long time I thought the main goal of Christianity was to escape this world. It’s been a long journey for me to see that following Jesus has real implications for this world here and now. That following Jesus means working to see this world restored and redeemed, to see Gods kingdom come here on earth as it is in Heaven.
Apologies for the long comment! I hope I don’t put you to sleep with my epistle…I pray Gods richest blessing on you and your family in this Christmas season. I pray that you may know the unspeakable depths of the love and mercy of King Jesus. And I pray that the Holy Spirit may dwell richly with you, that you may in turn be a blessing to others. Grace and Peace.
Andrew: I find that people often have trouble moving out of an either/or paradigm. If one does not believe in an eternal hell, then one must not believe in discipline or consequence- everything becomes a free for all. I have no trouble with hell in theory, but I get tripped up over the word eternal. The way Hell is popularly articulated would fly in the face of most of the story of scripture. Any claims God would make to “Father” would be laughable. The story of the prodigal becomes pretty meaningless. God is not patient, God does not always persevere, God keeps records of wrongs, and hope dies.
Yep, I don’t think that should be the Christian story.
Grant: I find it hard to dismiss the idea that Hell exists and that some people will end up there. Although what Hell truly is, is another question. I like what Tim Keller said (following CS Lewis) – the fire imagery is probably metaphorical, but it’s a metaphor for something far worse than a literal fire. To those who follow Jesus and say “Thy will be done” God grants them eternal life. To those who refuse God allows them to continue in their chosen existence and in effect says to them “Well OK, Thy will be done”.
If Jesus said that he is the way the truth and the life, then he must in some sense have come to save people from ways that were not the way, that were contrary to truth and life. If following Jesus leads us to real life, and real truth, then other ways do not lead us there, they lead to error and death. Here is exactly where I see Hell fitting in. In choosing not to follow Jesus people are in effect choosing death over life. In short I think Hell (whatever it may end up being) is something chosen by people rather than a place people are sent to. That way I see that God wills all to be saved but some choose not to accept the offer and prefer to declare their independence from God. God loves everyone but not everyone reciprocates. God never forces people to love him. If he did, could we really call that Love? God is patient and God perseveres but he has set a time limit on his patience. Endless patience is not patience but acceptance of the way things are. God is patient but wants to give everyone a chance to respond. But He will not wait forever. Doesn’t mean he’s not patient. God does persevere, he also suffers long the sin of his creation. Hope does not die this way, it is very much alive for those who follow Jesus. There is no hope for those who chose not to follow Jesus.
There are other options I don’t know much about – annihilationism and conditional immortality are two I’d like to explore.
I’m not sure what Andrew means when he says the way hell is popularly articulated. I assume he means that people present salvation as fire insurance?
Well that’s how I see it…..
Andrew: No, wasn’t making a comment about salvation… just that most folks would say hell is a place of torment, that it is eternal, and that you only have till you die to get it right.
It may be that God set a time… 3,2,1… and the door is closed forever. However, if that is the case, he may be god… but he is no Father.
Grant: Hi Andrew, thanks for clearing that up. I hear you on that point and I suspect that many people naturally recoil from this doctrine because of the way it is presented. I was told that you never preach about Hell without a tear in your eye for obvious reasons. I suspect that many times it has been preached with air of smugness and superiority, as if the preacher was some how happy that people ended up there. I know there are also emotional issues attached with this doctrine, especially when we have close friends and family members who don’t know Christ. It’s heartbreaking to think about their fate to be honest.
But I must respectfully disagree with you on that point about God as Father. I don’t think it Hell undermines it. I don’t think your conclusion logically flows from your point about Hell. I actually think it is the other way around. If God does not have a limit on his patience and time limit for those who persistently rebel against God then he is not good and he is not just. He is also a bad father.
Would we call a man a good earthly father if he allowed his children to run wild, get into situations that harmed them and the family? Would we call him a good father if he never tried to stop the bad behavior of the child? If the Child ignored the ultimatum from the parent- stop this or face the consequences – would we call them a good father if they didn’t make good on their promise of punishment?
Of course we wouldn’t. We would call them a bad father. In fact we couldn’t even call them a parent. They are the servant of a child who is allowed to do what they want. They’re even worse than baby sitters. Yet this is what i see many people expecting God to do. They expect him to allow people to persist in sin, in open rebellion against him forever. Can we really call God good or Father if he allows evil to persist forever? Can we really say that God is just if he leaves evil unpunished?
While I would like all people to be given a chance to repent after death, I don’t find a lot of scriptural support for it and as such I can’t bring myself to believe it on an intellectual basis. On an emotional basis I’m holding out for it. I once heard someone say “I’m not a universalist, but God might be.” If God chooses to let everyone off the hook at the end of time, who am I to complain? It would be awesome, but I’d have a hard time understanding why God chose to forgive people like Stalin or Hitler who died unrepentant sinners.
I know I didn’t touch on the eternal side of things, and this comment is already WAAAYY too long. But let me point you to a good sermon on the topic that helped me clarify my understanding of Hell. It’s by Tim Keller – here is the link:
http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/hell-isnt-god-christianity-angry-judge
Andrew: Thanks Grant for your response. However, I still hold my position. It is common for people to believe that because I do not accept an eternal Hell, I would assume that God would be an overly indulgent Father who cannot discipline his children. I think nothing of the kind. I think God can discipline, protect, enforce rules, and do all the things a good father does without that going hand in hand with assigning a child to an eternal torture chamber with no hope of release. These are two different points, but it is a separation that most Christians have trouble seeing – let alone wrestling with. Again, I don’t think anyone will be let off the hook, I think everyone will have to come to grips with the way they have harmed others… and I don’t think they can move on until they have come to term with those realities. I don’t think anyone moves on unrepentant… But there would be no reason for a father to have a cut off point… I do not believe any parent would… however, I can completely picture an annoyed sibling desiring the father to have a cut off point…. and it is our fellow siblings who have penned and edited the scriptures. :)
Grant: Hi Andrew, thanks for the response and I still respectfully differ with you.
I do think you’ve got a lot of assumptions in your comment that are unwarranted. I’m not sure Hell is something assigned to someone as it is chosen by the person who goes there. In effect God says to that person “OK, if what you want is independence from me, then you can have it.” The person who dies with unrepentant heart simply does not want to be with Jesus following death. Note the story in the Bible of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). When the rich man dies and ends up in Hell, he first response is not “Get me out of here.” He asks Abraham for a drink to ease his burning tongue. He is content to stay there and continue his life apart from God, although he does want his stay to be somewhat more comfortable.
Let me also pose a hypothetical question to you. What if you punished, disciplined, loved, protected and enforced good rules on your own child, yet no matter what you did they continually chose to ignore you, go their own way and denounce you as their parent? What if they sought to have the legal relationship between the two of you changed so that they would never have to ever be known as your child? What if they wanted to completely and utterly declare that they had nothing to do with you? How would you feel?
Devastated to say the least. If that were me I would spend the rest of my life chasing them, pursuing them, loving them until my last breath. Yet if they constantly resisted my advances, refused to see me and consistently declared me to dead to them, what could I possibly do to make them love me? I could never force them to love me. At some point I would have to allow them to choose what they wanted to do. It would be heartbreaking (and I would spend my life pleading with them to choose differently) but if they didn’t choose to love me what could I do? I could never force them to love me. In effect they have shunned what could have been a wonderful life with healthy relationships and love, for their own independence. While it might be hard to believe this ever happening in today’s world it is exactly what we have done to God as human beings. God doesn’t want anyone to choose that sort of relationship with him, and he pursues us relentlessly, but he cannot force us to love him. Love that is forced is not love at all.
Andrew: Grant, before I continue, let me say that I appreciate your respectful dialogue. I find few people in online conversation that can hold an opposite view but resist the urge to get into taunts and jibes. Refreshing.
In response to your hypothetical question: I can imagine your scenario, and I agree that it would be hurtful and I cannot ever make my child love me. But here is where I think a Father’s response differs, as a Father, I would never refuse the return of my son. The door is not locked. My son, regardless of how he has rejected me, what he has said, what he has done, ALWAYS has an open door waiting for him.
The one thing I have realized as a parent is that I will always love my children more than they love me. This is not lack of love on their part, but surplus of love on mine. I think there are some parents who, whether consciously or unconsciously, react negatively when they discover this and because they never received a surplus of love from their parents- dysfunction begins and is perpetuated.
I think the god as described by popular Christianity, the one who sends people to Hell (no sane person chooses torture) is a bit of a dysfunctional father. He cannot abide a child not returning his love, and so the child must be punished. I think dysfunctional parenting is so common that we do not react when we see its markers being attributed to God.
I was watching the play Cinderella last night, and as I saw the step sisters desperately trying to get the glass slipper to fit, it occurred to me that this is what many Christians are trying to do with Hell. They feel that they have to believe it, so they squish and they push. They begin to attribute to god things that would be considered psychotic and evil were we to attribute them to any man. But for sake of orthodoxy we have learned to call evil good in this case. The reality is, this slipper is one that will never fit, no matter how we contort. It is better to throw it away.
Grant: Thanks for the kind words Andrew. I was watching NT Wright last night on Homosexuality and the Church. One of his main points was that we need to get to a place where we can have civilized discussion instead of a shouting match. I think that hit the nail on the head, and it could be applied to just about all controversial points of Christian doctrine. I must confess I am partial to shouting matches, so I’m glad this has not turned into one. I think back to my earlier more Pharisaical days where I regularly denounced anyone who differed with me as heretical. I have had to repent of much in my short time on the planet. So I am glad you find my tone refreshing. I aim to keep it that way.
I think we’re on a similar wavelength with the doctrine of Hell. I believe that all who want to return to God will. I’m a firm believer that God will never turn people away who want to repent, and I believe that God is sovereign in the affairs of the world to ensure that all who want to return to him will do so during the course of their lives. I would love to believe in post-mortem repentance, but I just don’t see it in the Bible. I think there are two questions here. First is the precise nature of Hell. The second is how does one end up there? While I’m not 100% sure of the precise nature of Hell, I am a little more sure that people who end up in Hell have chosen that path as I have argued in other comments.
I still find no good reason to dismiss the doctrine of hell in regards to the way I have outlined in my previous comments. I think there are far more problems with rejecting Hell than there are with accepting it. Theology is very much an interconnected web, and removing one doctrine quickly affects others. Firstly, without the reality of Hell Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross becomes incredibly ambiguous, as does the notion of salvation. Salvation denotes rescue, but what did Jesus rescue us from? In fact if God will never send anyone to Hell and will always allow people into heaven then why bother to repent and follow Jesus? Why not just do your own thing? Why not be an Atheist or a Buddhist instead? If the outcome is same for everyone irrespective of what I do on earth then what does it matter how I behave or what I believe? In effect by removing Hell we are saying “Let us do evil so that good may result.” It would be a strange and sad world where that was allowed to happen. I know God is capable of other methods of discipline and punishment, and I know not everyone would do evil so that good would result if there was no Hell. But if we will all end up in the same place and position, then what does it matter what we believe or do here on earth? If we admit that not everyone will end up in the same place then where do those who remain unrepentant before and after death go? Will they be given a chance to repent after death? I don’t see it in the Bible, as much as I would like it to be true. Yet I still see significant problems with that view. Why bother to preach that people need to repent in this life and follow Jesus if they will be given a chance in the next life? Why not do as we please and wait to repent in the next life?
I’ll finish with a comment on popular Christianity. It is by no means as homogeneous as it would appear, and often what gets media coverage are the most controversial stories. Think of how much media coverage that “God-hates-fags” church gets relative to their size. Nor is popular Christianity always the most orthodox. Joel Osteen’s health wealth and prosperity teachings are very popular with some Christians but decidedly outside the realms of orthodox Christianity. That said I do understand the damage that many popular Christian movements have caused. Think about the Left Behind books and how they popularized a rapture theology. I know because for a long time I thought the main goal of Christianity was to escape this world. It’s been a long journey for me to see that following Jesus has real implications for this world here and now. That following Jesus means working to see this world restored and redeemed, to see Gods kingdom come here on earth as it is in Heaven.
Apologies for the long comment! I hope I don’t put you to sleep with my epistle…I pray Gods richest blessing on you and your family in this Christmas season. I pray that you may know the unspeakable depths of the love and mercy of King Jesus. And I pray that the Holy Spirit may dwell richly with you, that you may in turn be a blessing to others. Grace and Peace.
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