Facebook Faith # 14 Hate is Love!

This meme has so many problems it makes me think of something my brother once said- "I am like a mosquito at a nudist colony... I don't know where to start." It is indicative of the cry of persecution many religious bullies shout when their words and actions are being publicly resisted.

Let's just look at the first one.  If someone is actively persecuting me and my community, would I actually care that they are "praying" for me? Is not the smarmy nature of this declaration just one more layer of insult?

But this is the shelter many religious folks run to... they want some religious act to somehow negate, or balance out their behavior.  I experienced this recently on my brother's Facebook page.  He had written an article that had a positive take on Rob Bell's recent supportive statement on gay marriage.  It was not long before the Christian conservatives started to circle the wagons. They could not understand how my brother could speak so good-naturedly of someone as "false", "low", and "disgusting" as Rob Bell.

I tried to engage the thinking of one of my brother's friends, but as can be expected, it went nowhere. She intended to interpret all disagreement with her position as an act of hostility and responded in kind. She had no tolerance for anyone who did not share her "biblical" view on homosexuality. However, for all her acidity towards homosexuals and those who support them, one of her final statements was:

"I don't hold an anti-gay view at all. I love people. period."

To borrow from Arthur Dent:

 "Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'love' that I wasn't previously aware of."

But that is the point... many Christians use the word 'love' in practice like they use variables in an algebraic equation - a = b = c :

I don't like you. I may find you low, disgusting, false, and repugnant. I will stand against you, treat you like an inferior, and try to enact legislation so that you are NEVER going to be considered equal to me. But I have the "TRUTH", and since I am sharing it with you - that means I love you.

Religious people tend to be well trained in doublethink and doublespeak. As such, a meme like the one above can be written and shared, dripping with self righteousness, while asserting a position of complete humility. They can claim to love you... while despising the air you breathe - and see zero contradiction.

Every Believer Reads A Jefferson Bible

Have you heard of "The Jefferson Bible"? The retired president, Thomas Jefferson, one evening took a pair of scissors and began removing from the gospels text that did not reflect his view of the divine. Though he held the teachings of Jesus in high esteem, there were various portions of scripture that he could not abide.  In this way, he was living out the yet to be spoken words of Walt Whitman:

“Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul.”

Jefferson's purpose in taking the blade to his bible was stated this way by the historian Gaustad:

"The president did not produce his small book to shock or offend a somnolent world; he composed it for himself, for his devotion, for his assurance, for a more restful sleep at nights and a more confident greeting of the mornings."

It occurred to me years ago, while I was still a believer, that every faithful person makes their own Jefferson Bible. We may not actually pull out the scissors, but we are bringing certain scriptures to the forefront while sidelining others. When I was young and full of Hell, Fire, and Brimstone, I read and quoted scriptures about sin and the judgment of God. When I was older, I saw scriptures of grace, love, and peace.

In each case, I was creating my own personalized version of the scripture; neither being an honest representation of what was in the text. No scissors, but scripture was nonetheless on the cutting room floor.

When you become a believer, you are instructed with a "Jefferson Bible". If you are a Charismatic, your instruction will focus on about 100 verses concerning health and prosperity. If you are liberal mainline, you will spend a lot of time with the minor prophets and the gospels. If you are a conservative evangelical, scripture will clearly speak to the saved and unsaved, the haves and the have nots.

Like a Rorschach test, the bible will reflect what is happening in your soul. The verses you cling to, study, and quote will say much more about you than they do about any deity.

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Facebook Faith # 13 Is God Bi-Polar?

Do you believe the bible is inerrant? Do you believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore?

I posed that question along with this meme on Facebook because I think scriptures such as these - and the bible is full of them - present many problems for people who hold such a view of God and the bible.  How do you reconcile verses such as this?

For the most part, you don't. I attended churches that held an inerrant view of the bible and an unchanging view of God for most of my life, and you never hear verses like this quoted or taught.  If you do, it is quickly ejected from the thought process.... nothing is allowed to simmer which might bring the steadfastness of God and his word into question.

Instead, stating you BELIEVE the bible becomes a mark of Faith. As reader and commentor Jonni observed a few posts ago, "To a Christian, the bible is like the terms and conditions on their itunes account. No one actually reads it - you're just supposed to scroll to the bottom and click "I agree".

Two other approaches came up in the Facebook conversation for dealing with verses like this. One was shared by a pastor friend, who is a liberal Christian, and he holds the view that the bible is simply not inerrant. That verse was written by a flawed man trying to speak of God.

This is actually how I view the bible, and why I still find value in it. However, the slippery slope of that perspective lead me to realize that it was a an ancient text like any other... so why give it any metaphysical credence? How does an ancient people writing their thoughts about the divine have any more weight than the many similar texts which do the same thing?

The other response was that God just dealt differently at that time and our understanding is simply unclear... but that doesn't make God wrong.

I think this is a last ditch effort to cling to inerrancy when all evidence is to the contrary.  I also think it does not give enough credit to our ability to make a good judgement - most souls in this world would not struggle to make a call on the following:

Picture dragging a young girl to her father's house on her wedding night and throwing rocks at her unprotected body... skin lacerating... bones cracking... blood running... until she is dead.

Truthfully... is anyone going to try to spin that onto the good ledger?

If not, then the person holding the inerrant view must conclude that the God they worship today is still fully invested in that kind of thinking.

They probably also need to admit that they would view such an act in the Muslim religion as horrific.

So what do you do with those verses of violence?

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What I Believed

and monkeys might...

Three years ago, I posted a blog listing what I believed as a Christian. Two years ago, I reposted that list on Facebook and got taken to task by one of my pastors. I was still a Christian at that point, but my commitment and attendance at church had gotten thin. In fact, I seem to recall his response as a significant tipping point. There was no more denying that Evangelical Christianity and I stood apart.

Here is the list, and the subsequent conversation. It originally consisted of him responding to each of my points, and then I went back and addressed each of his concerns. For clarity, I will edit that into one streaming conversation. This is kind of long, so you might want to grab a beer and some popcorn.

• I do not believe God has any more investment in America than anywhere else. It is pure ego and insecurity that drives us into all of this "God is on our side" language.

• There is no "War on Christmas".

• I believe abortion is the murder of innocent life, but our attempts to legislate it away is closing the door when the horse has already left the barn. It is easy to shout against abortion, it is a sacrifice to work for the changes that need to come about to make a real difference.

• Christians are no different than anyone else.... really..... at all.

• I do not believe that any soul will spend an eternity in a place called Hell. Nope, not one.

• I believe prayer in public schools is motivated by a desire for power, not piety.

• I do not believe it is a threat to my children, nor to my marriage, if homosexuals marry.

• I believe the world would be a better place if the head of every ministry quit, then went and got a job at their local hospital.

• I do not believe in any kind of "rapture". I believe God wants us to redeem this world.

• I believe God is as close as out next breath, but that most Christian rhetoric shields Him from view.

• I believe Christianity competes with other religions, and that is a mistake.

• I believe most Christian parents lead their children to make spiritual decisions that they are not yet equipped to make.

• I believe organizations like Focus on the Family do more harm than good.

• I believe most churches indoctrinate their congregations and are houses of theological inbreeding. Inbreeding is bad in genetics and worse in theology.

• I believe Christians spend a lot of time working on "belief" rules (inerrancy of scripture, hell, trinity, salvation, etc..) so they can divide people into in/out and thereby give themselves a higher position.

• I believe Christianity has completely jettisoned the command to "love your enemy" and in doing so we have lost the heart of the gospel.

• I believe God stands with the poor. Christianity honors the poor while inside church doors, but mocks them in political discussions.

• I believe there are Christians who live contrary to what I have said, but they do not own the term "Christian" here in America.

And now, the conversation:

PASTOR: Andy, I really don’t think I can argue with your beliefs, because you obviously have a problem with some of the things Jesus and the Bible teaches. But I will give you my best shot from The Bible and the teachings of Jesus, just in case some may be swayed by your “beliefs”. 

Your friend! Pastor

ME: You seem to assume that your beliefs are biblically based, whereas mine are not. This is an erroneous assumption because I can scripturally account for every belief I hold. However, everyone “obviously has a problem” with various points of scripture because we all tend to highlight some parts while minimizing or ignoring others. This is why I often state that the bible is like one big Rorschach test. What we take away from it, I believe, says a lot more about us than it does about God. Using scripture to defend a point is of some value, but one can easily find scripture to the contrary point. This is why there are over 30,000 different versions of Christianity. The folks at Westboro Baptist probably have airtight scriptural reasoning for why they do what they do. I still think they are wrong.

•”I believe abortion is the murder of innocent life, but our attempts to legislate it away is closing the door when the horse has already left the barn.” 

PASTOR: REALLY? Go Back in time and tell that to the abolitionist and the slaves in both England and the USA. Glad they didn't take your advice.

ME: I don’t think I hold as contrary an opinion here as you seem to allude to. I just don’t think legislation accomplishes all that much when the majority of people hold a different ethos (not to say that it isn't an avenue). Slavery was ended, but it was generations before any real change started to happen. Some Christians feel morally obligated to vote for only pro-life candidates, yet it is often the case that less abortions occur under pro-choice legislatures and administrations. I just think this issue runs deep, but often we seem content as a Christian community to address this as purely a legal battle.

• Christians are no different than anyone else.... really..... at all.

PASTOR: REALLY? The Bible Calls Christians “sanctified”, “set-apart”, “chosen” “holy”. Christ made a Huge difference in my life. Without him, my life would be a crap hole. If Christ in me, the hope of glory doesn't make me different, than I am one to be pitied.

ME: But lots of folks have pulled their lives out of a “crap-hole” without “Christ”. And many people with “Christ” remain in a crap hole. As Christians, we are just as statistically likely to divorce, gossip, slander, sue, go to war, hate our enemies, kick the dog, etc. We can say lot of euphemisms to declare our differences…. But we are not fooling anybody. Jesus made this clear during the Sermon on the Mount. IF one is really different, I think it should be what others say of us… not what we say of ourselves.

• I do not believe that any soul will spend an eternity in a place called Hell. Nope, not one.

PASTOR: REALLY? From what do you base this belief on. I do not like the concept of hell at all, but the one who claimed he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life taught more on hell than heaven. If we don’t believe in one, we shouldn't believe in the other. 

ME: As I stated above, I have scriptural arguments for my Universalism (all on my blog). But here is just one “In Adam all died, in Christ all are made alive”. I never said I didn't believe in Hell, or ramifications, or punishment – I just don’t think scripture consistently can be used to make an “eternal” argument. “God disciplines us for our good; that we may share in his holiness.” His corrections, like all good fathers, have a hopeful end. God never fails.

• “I do not believe in any kind of "rapture". I believe God wants us to redeem this world.”

PASTOR: REALLY? There is only one redeemer, Jesus Christ: “Christ redeemed us from the curse” Galatians 3:13. Not even Jesus can redeem this world. He can only redeem those who believe and are washed in his blood. The rapture is clearly communicated by Jesus, the Apostle Paul and others in the Bible.

ME: Well, again, your hermeneutic here is just different than mine. I believe scripture calls us to be redeeming agents in this world (we are his hands and feet, equipped to do good works). I would also argue that the rapture is a fairly new Christian teaching and exists clearly in the Left Behind novels, but fuzzy in Scripture – if at all.

• I believe Christianity competes with other religions, and that is a mistake. 

PASTOR: REALLY? Jesus said “go and make disciples of every nation.” Guess what his disciples did. They went out and made disciples of Jews, Gentiles, Idol worshippers, and people of all religions. That’s not competition, that’s obedience to Jesus. We Christians still follow Jesus’ commands, whether you think that is a mistake or not. 

ME: But in many cases I think our conversions are often worsening the problem (“You scour the land and sea to make a disciple, and when you do, you make him twice a son of Hell). But my point is that our view of other religions is often based on false assumptions, and our superior/competitive attitude often prevents us from being good neighbors.

• I believe most Christian parents lead their children to make spiritual decisions that they are not yet equipped to make.

PASTOR: REALLY? I believe that Christian Parents should: “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.” Deut 6:5-7

Unfortunately, from over 20 years of experience in Children’s Ministry, most Christian Parents do not teach their children to Love the Lord with all their heart. Some even forsake the church and release their children to the world.

ME: Teaching is one thing… indoctrinating is something different. I guess it depends on how one is using the word. However, I was addressing decisions. We would never let our 9 year-old pick their spouse at that age – Why? Because they do not have the facilities to make such a huge decision… what musical instrument they want to play is probably enough at this stage. Yet parents often want their children to make big religious decisions. It makes me wonder if they really believe it to be an important decision. A lot of parents direct their children into decisions and somehow think their child made a “real” decision. I have a card trick that I do for my students. They are amazed at the end because they think they made every choice along the way, yet somehow I knew their card. The truth is that “I” made every one of those decisions – performers call this “magician’s choice”. I see parents do this all the time with their children spiritually, but not only does the child believe they made the choice, the parent also believes the child made the choice.

• I believe most churches indoctrinate their congregations and are houses of theological inbreeding. 

Inbreeding is bad in genetics and worse in theology.

PASTOR: REALLY? The Church is the bride of Christ. Calling her a theological inbred is just not nice.

ME: I don’t mean it as an insult but as a description. When theological ideas are coming from only one source, or only approved sources… that is inbreeding. It can produce theological offspring with serious “health” issues. Paul warned against this - “when they judge themselves by themselves, and compare themselves with themselves; they are not wise.”

PASTOR: Andy,

I love you and your family, and actually don’t hate anyone. As a pastor, I have never taught anyone to hate another person, nor have I ever been a part of a church that taught hate. You make the church out to be “The mother of all Haters” and for that I am saddened. As a leader in the church, perhaps I and all my fellow ministers should give up, close the doors of the church, and “redeem the world” as you put it. But that wasn’t God’s plan. Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell (yes, a real place) will not prevail against it.” God’s only plan is the church. It is the only hope for the world. It’s the only organization which can point people to their Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

Think About it!

ME:  My thought is that I don’t think I make the church out to be the “mother of all haters”, but neither do I see the church as one monolithic unit. As I indicated in my last “belief” there are many types of Christians out there, but the kind of Christian I would hope would pop in the mind of a non-Christian is usually not the one that pops in when the term is mentioned.

Again, we differ on a perspective of organized church…. I think it is part of how God is redeeming the world, but not limited to it.

Yes, I believe Hell is a real place…. And I also believe it will not prevail, not once.

I don’t expect you to change your views based on anything I said, but I hope we can move away from your initial insinuation that you are speaking for God, whereas I am speaking without Him. We disagree on many things (perhaps strongly), but we probably agree on many as well. I would hope there is enough common ground there to find us each a place in Christianity.

PASTOR: Love you man. Happy New Year to you and your Family!

and that was that...

Just as some background, my family moved out to Salt Lake with about 35 other folks 10 years ago to start that church. At the time of this conversation, we were already on our way out. My views above had been that way for years, and did not mesh well with the church and some folks in it. Still, inertia kept us going there for quite awhile after our expiration date had passed. I was given some advice that I could get back into everyone's good graces if I would just quit announcing my opinions and tone down the blogging.

"It might happen. Shyeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt!" ~ Wayne Campbell

Facebook #12 The Bible is What I Say It Is

A friend posted an article, actually more a list of sayings, that has made the rounds over the past few years. The sayings reframe various Old Testament events as being superseded or completed in Jesus. Here are some:

Jesus is the true and better Jacob who wrestled and took the blow of justice we deserved, so we, like Jacob, only receive the wounds of grace to wake us up and discipline us.

Jesus is the true and better Joseph who, at the right hand of the king, forgives those who betrayed and sold him and uses his new power to save them.

It goes on to make a dozen similar connections to the Old Testament.

My friend, like many, use a list like this to give a poetic licence of Grace to the Old Testament. However, one does not need to be a Hasidic Jew to realize this rendering of the ancient scriptures cannot help but lead to misunderstanding. 

But - this is my point - UNDERSTANDING is not the point. Feeling good about the God of Jesus is the point.

In order to do that, the Old Testament... and some of the New... must be emasculated. All the blood, death, genocide .... the pages saturated with violence and gore must be ignored, glossed over, or re-imagined. Spend too much time in the Bible, reading it as it is, and any person of good conscience is going to struggle to feel good about the God of Jesus.

I appreciate the views of  Walter Brueggemann, a noted Old Testament scholar, who eschews the Christian tendency to avoid the violence of the Old Testament. Rather than avoiding it, or denying it, he attempts to name it for what it is... a reflection of the character of God. He states:

" the God of the Bible is “in recovery” from a propensity to violence, a recovery that requires, on God’s part, intentionality and resolve against an easy reactive treatment of any opposition."

This is not how Christians are instructed to wrestle with the Old Testament. When they think of Noah, they picture cute Arks and animals that children play with in nurseries... not children drowning. When they think of God's commands, they think of the Ten Commandments - not the ones where God encourages the owning of slaves and justifies their beatings. When they think of the armies of the Lord, they picture God as the great and just commander; not one who tells the soldiers to kill every man, woman, and child... but to keep the virgin girls for their own use. You don't tend to hear these scriptures quoted or sung in this fashion on Sunday morning.

No - Most Christians proclaim the bible to be the inerrant Word of God without ever having read it. They grant it unquestioning authority without ever having wrestled with it. This is the definition of blind faith.

Passages like the one I referenced at the beginning serve as a type of inoculation. Having read such items, the Christian feels they have a sense of the "true" heart of the Old Testament. Objective views in church culture are rare, but any that surface will be quickly rendered inert by proclamations of a grace-filled God... who bears little resemblance to the God presented throughout much of the Old Testament.

Facebook Faith # 11 - Moral Desolation

I grew up in a Christian culture that valued the preaching of Leonard Ravenhill and men like him - so I have to comment on this poster I saw on Facebook.

Preachers like Ravenhill see the world as a decadent place that is getting worse all the time. The only solution available, from their perspective, is to make you like them. The world they see consists of Christians (who usually are not committed enough), enemies of the faith, and the yet to be converted.

This sour and depressing view of life is simply a carry-over of medieval religious masochism. They have exchanged whipping themselves with the lash, to whipping themselves and others with words and attitudes.

Leonard Ravenhill was born in 1907 and died in 1994. He saw amazing things. Aside from scientific advances, which would cause any person with awareness to whoop with joy, he lived through societal progression that had never been seen in human history. He saw women, children, minorities, and the poor go from being treated as property or second class humans, to becoming people with rights, desires, and freedoms they could rightfully claim. Moral desolation? I call that significant moral progression!

There are still many preachers like Leonard Ravenhill out there. They see Humanism, the desire for humanity to reach its best potential, as a threat to religious control. Religious control needs humanity to see itself as wounded, damaged, and unworthy.

I met Leonard Ravenhill once.  He was busy chastising some female classmates of mine (one to tears) for going out for ice cream together rather than attending his bible study.

I knew then, and believe more so now, that those girls spent their time more wisely by going out for ice cream.

Facebook Faith #10 - What's Good for the Goose...

Accepting the reality of this picture was one of the key items that drove me from my faith.  I grew up in evangelical environments where ours was the dominate religious influence.  When I moved out to Salt Lake City 9 years ago, I had quite an education in what it was like to be a religious minority.

One of the things that struck me is that Evangelicals out here often rolled their eyes at Mormonism, incredulous that Mormons could "believe all that crazy stuff". Mormon practices, scriptures, and beliefs were often snickered at by my Evangelical friends.

Since I had developed so many friendships with Mormons, I found myself getting defensive on their behalf. I didn't believe Mormon theology, but I was becoming annoyed at the behavior of my Christian friends towards Mormons. Somewhere in that process of annoyance, the groundwork was laid for me to look at my own practices, scriptures, and beliefs... and, low and behold, I started to wonder why I "believed all this crazy stuff".

Reading Bart Ehrman's Jesus Interrupted, I came across the reason why any of us believe "crazy stuff".  When religious people read their scriptures or partake in practices, they are doing so devotionally - they are dedicated to the truth of the scripture and practice from the beginning.  A devotional approach, as opposed to a critical one, allows one to bypass items that would normally challenge our reason.  What usually happens is Religion A wants Religion B to observe Religion B's practices and scripture critically... while Religion A continues to observe its own practices and scripture devotionally.

My faith began to crumble when I saw the inherent hypocrisy of applying critical thinking assessments to the religion of another, while being unwilling to apply them to my own.  Once I began to look at my faith critically... it didn't last long.

Facebook Faith # 9: An Atheist and Evangelical in Conversation

The following is a conversation I had with an Evangelical friend of mine on Facebook concerning belief in God. I don't have these as much anymore since many of my Evangelical friends have defriended me on Facebook, or have merely removed me from their Newsfeed. One friend told me she had defriended me so she did not have to "put up with" my negative views on religion. Facebook, she believed, was not the place for me to be making such arguments. Somehow, she did not consider her constant stream of religious cliches' to be in the same "argument" category. :)

This is also a good conversation because Mike and I are cordial and respectful throughout...

I recognize that these discussions tend to be circular, so one might wonder whether or not they are worth having. I believe they are. Not so much because I think I will have any impact with the person I am in conversation with (as Brook makes clear), but rather with those who may be observing. My exit from Christianity may have happened much sooner had the internet been around when I was young. To be sure, my questions and doubts started early, but I had no one to bounce them off of. There were few avenues for questioning available to me as a young person. I think these conversations are worth having because there are still myriads of people who are unaware that there are other stories being told.

Andrew Hackman via Stuff Christian Culture Likes

February 8 at 11:39am · 

• Ministries that focus on evangelizing children do so under the belief that, the older a person gets, the less likely they are to become Christians.
  
  So... if you don't get em as kids, you probably won't get em.
  
  How this realization does not cause a reality check within their organization is mind-boggling....

  

  
  

  Sophia Investigates The Good News Club

  www.youtube.com
  

  In 2001 the Good News Club won a 6 to 3 Supreme Court case that gave them the right to set up evangelical ministries in public elementary schools. This docum...

  Like ·  ·  · Share · Promote

  • Darrin  and Thomas  like this.
  • 

    Darrin  Yep. Blatant brain washing.

    February 8 at 12:55pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
  • 

    Michael  Or as God promises in Proverbs 22:6, "Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old he will not depart from it. " but I guess you're not old enough yet Andy...lol

    February 8 at 7:09pm · Like
  • 

    Andrew Hackman Nothing wrong with training, I educate kids for a living. However, even in many of the more liberal denominations, there is a whole lotta indoctrination going on. In fact, I can think of only one church where I actually saw religious education going on in the children's Sunday school. 

    February 8 at 7:34pm · Like
  • 

    Michael  As Christians, it's our responsibility to make sure that our kids are trained in the way that they should go...not a church's or any organization.

    February 8 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
  • 

    Darrin  How about, as a parent... its our responsibility. Why does religion have to be in the mix? I believe in freedom of choice, not indoctrination. Isn't that what the god presented in the Bible known as God supposedly wants? Freedom of choice?

    February 8 at 8:03pm via mobile · Like · 1
  • 

    Michael  Sharing God's love and instructing my kids on Godly/Biblically based principles is a personal choice that we each have whether to do it or not...as for me and my house we have chosen to serve the Lord...No one is forcing you to do so...we each are created with a free will...thereby having freedom of choice...I personally don't understand why anyone would choose not to accept God's gift...but ultimately it is an individual choice. It is my belief, however, that there is never an absence of faith...everyone believes/worships something whether it's God or their own reasoning/intellect.

    February 8 at 8:24pm · Like
  • 

    Andrew Hackman You don't understand why anyone would choose not to accept God's gift... my Mormon friends hope everyone accepts the revelation of a living prophet and discovers the truth of the book of Mormon. Hare' Krishna's hope you partake in his love. The funny thing about religion is that one's religion is HIGHLY determined by geography. Most people worldwide tend to stay with the brand, or a sub-brand, of what they were raised with. That is not choice... it is what the guy in the video talked about, it is imperative that religion get you before your 14. Whatever religion your parents are... surprise, surprise, you will most likely be as well.
    
    I wish kids got a chance for that free will, but the truth is, in the majority of religious homes they simply don't. The world detests the Westboro Baptist folks, but they are just doing overtly what most Christian homes are doing covertly. Children have no more choice in the typical religious home than they do at Westboro.
    
    Even when I was still a Christian, I let my kids know they were free.
    
    http://mrhackman.blogspot.com/2010/04/exclusivism-and-parenting.html
    

    
    

    Hackman's Musings: Exclusivism and Parenting

    mrhackman.blogspot.com
    

    Andrew- I think you know my story. My Mom is 89 and "worries" about me leaving "the faith". She converses with my conservative, fundamentalist son (my eldest) about the situation, but won't say a word about it to me. I am an only child. Most probably the reason I don't hear about it. To her credit,…

    February 8 at 9:24pm · Like · Remove Preview
  • 

    Michael  I believe that everyone at some point in their life, myself included, had to decide what they believe regardless of what religious training they're exposed to. I also believe that there's value in being taught to stand for something and to have convictions even if initially kids beliefs mirror their parents. If kids are taught nothing, they will default to the religion of humanism/intellectualism, which is being taught in our public schools. So there is always indoctrination being propagated it's just the one that you choose to subscribe to. That's why I believe that you're always serving/believing in someone/something... Btw I know several people that were raised in Christian homes that are no longer Christians...so free will ultimately always wins.

    February 8 at 10:00pm · Like
  • 

    Andrew Hackman Michael, you make are making a number of wrong assumptions... well, I dont know that they are assumptions, but I know it is what Christians are taught to think... Why do you believe if a family does not believe as you do, the children are being taught "nothing"? Do you believe that Christian families are the only ones truly capable of teaching sincerity, honesty, compassion, determination, etc? Why would you believe non-christian kids are being taught nothing? I can roll out for you Mormons, Atheists, Catholics, Evangelicals, and a Hindu who could testify to you the solid nature under which my children are being raised... so I don't see where that point carries weight.
    
    You say humanism as if it were a bad thing... all humanism is a determination to to empower all people everywhere to lead good and happy lives. It is a solidarity and oneness.... not any slap to a deity. The fact that my kids love and support each other does not make me insecure... were there an eternal deity, I can't imagine him being put out by such a thing.
    
    And I can tell you that, as a school teacher, we are much too busy to be involved in any conspiracies to undermine the Christian god... I have enough trouble just making it to staff meetings. I don't have the energy for indoctrination of students.
    
    I understand that children will mirror their parents beliefs, but I think we can do more as parents to expose them to other choices that are available. I mentioned the one church that actually teaches religious studies to their children. During one term, they cover the Abrahamic religions, than the Eastern religions, then aboriginal and native religions. They even covered agnostics and atheists. How refreshing that they painted all these people as fellow human beings (humanism) rather than the enemy or the yet-to-be-converted.

    February 8 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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    Michael  I'm sure that other families that are taught differing religions may have the qualities that you list, however that does not minimize my belief that Bible is the inerrant Word of God...and since God has said there is only one mediator (Jesus)...that is what I believe...not because I am saying it, but because God is. I am not accountable for what others believe but I am accountable for what I do. I can see why it would be refreshing for a multi-theist or atheist to feel that it's refreshing for all religions to be considered as options for truth, however that's not what the Bible teaches. Bottom line for me is that God is God and I am not...that means I don't get to set the rules and I'm good with that. God came into this world that all might be saved...that is His Will. His message is one of hope, love and peace...so my view of non-Christians is not that they're the enemy but rather the mission field to share the good news of the gospel with and to pray for them....beyond that it's up to God to judge...not me.

    February 8 at 10:35pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman ".not because I am saying it, but because God is. "
    
    But... you did just say it.... and he didn't... and that is how that tends work with religious people.
    
    you also say you are basing your beliefs on "what the bible teaches" but that is problematic too. The bible teaches many things, and many of them contradictory. What really happens is Christians find a lifestyle that suits them, and then they find a church group with similar tastes, and they focus on the points of scripture that buttress those desires and tastes. The bible is used in varying degrees by over 30,000 different Christian groups... all saying their bible tells them so. Heck... Paul can't even agree Paul (assuming he wrote about half of what is claimed of him). After 30 years in Christendom, I have heard the bible say pretty much everything... and I particularly enjoy the bits that churches never touch.
    
    I have to say that one of the eye openers for me out here was to learn what it was like to be some one's "Mission Field". In the environments you and I were raised in, we really never got that experience. I wish everyone could feel what it is like to know you are someone's project or mission. I have learned it is just more more fulfilling to enjoy people for who they are.
    
    I get everything you are saying Michael. I have done it, felt it, said it, and believed it.
    
    Did you watch the video? It bothers me that they want these children to make "decisions" for Christ. Most kids don't even pick out their own clothes, do we adults really think children have the capacity to make such a decision. We would not encourage them to pick a spouse at 10. Why? Because they do not have the life skills in place yet for such a decision. It should say something about the appeal of a religion that needs to rob the cradle to get a convert.

    February 8 at 10:56pm · Like
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    Michael  I was saying specifically that God has said that there is only one mediator (Jesus) 1 Timothy 2:5. Since, I didn't write Timothy I didn't say it...lol. Through many years of Precept studies, I can definitely say that the Bible in context does not contradict itself...as far as church goes, I've attended Catholic, Non-denominational, Pentecostal, and have worked in a Baptist and Lutheran church...I can say that while much of religion is man-made, the core tenets of salvation are there in each denomination. My faith is not dependent on any church or denomination or in any person/pastor...trust me I have very little faith in any church....but I do have faith in Jesus and His Word. As to the Bible and the bits that churches never touch...it really doesn't matter...it doesn't matter how you or I view it or whether we like it...God is God and whether He's popular or PC to believe in is irrelevant...because at the end of the day He's God. I'll speak for myself and say it's impossible for me to look at my kids and believe that God is not their creator...or to try to believe that this world and all the intricacies are not designed by Him...and what other purpose are we here for...just for fun? lol Come on  As for your last point, I don't view sharing the love of Christ as exploitive to children...good news is not bad and if they can't understand it then that's ok too no harm done. I would say if you've heard the Bible say pretty much everything then I would say that's pretty sad...His Word is not that hard to understand so if people are using it improperly I guess they'll be accountable...even more reason to read and study it yourself  Don't allow imperfect people to preclude you from believing the Truth.

    February 8 at 11:39pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman - I don't view sharing the love of Christ as exploitive to children...good news is not bad and if they can't understand it then that's ok too no harm done.-
    
    Fish don't know that they are wet. I would not expect you to think of getting children to mindlessly parrot phrases and songs as being bad.... in fact it is rather cute, isn't it? The revealing thing is to show someone a DIFFERENT religion doing the exact same practices to children and suddenly the parroting doesn't look as cute. Show a bunch of kids you know being taught to parrot "There is no God but Allah!" or "The Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is God's prophet". After seeing such things, I have heard Evangelicals refer to it as "brainwashing". Yet they participate in the same practices... I realized after living out here a few years that, if Mormonism is a cult, then so is Evangelicalism.
    
    -I would say if you've heard the Bible say pretty much everything then I would say that's pretty sad -
    
    And I would say you are probably pretty typical of most evangelicals who, when it comes to scripture, have studied only the party line. There are verses that you have quoted, used, and heard in sermons COUNTLESS times... while there are a myriad of verses you have never heard before. Subsets of Christianity all partake in a filtering process by which they pedestal scriptures that advance their community narrative, while eschewing verses that counter their core beliefs. The only way you can see this happening is to see the world without your community's filters. Truly not any easy thing, everything in your life has been designed to keep your filters firmly in place. However, as the growing number of "nones" indicates, it is happening more and more.
    
    -even more reason to read and study it yourself Don't allow imperfect people to preclude you from believing the Truth.-
    
    It was not a lack of knowledge of scripture that allowed me to leave the faith. My knowledge of the bible is pretty prodigious. I feel like Paul in Corinthians -If anyone thinks they knew their bible... I knew more.  In fact, I highly believe that if more Christians would vigorously study their bibles... and move outside the pre-set studies and plans... there would be less Christians. Few know the origins of their bible, most believe Matthew wrote Matthew and John wrote John. 
    I didn't leave the faith because I did not understand or believe the bible. I left it BECAUSE I understand and believe the bible. I did Christianity for nearly 30 years... I left it because I get it. 

    February 9 at 8:07am · Like
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    Michael  -After seeing such things, I have heard Evangelicals refer to it as "brainwashing". Yet they participate in the same practices... I realized after living out here a few years that, if Mormonism is a cult, then so is Evangelicalism.-
    I've never said that training kids in other religions is brainwashing...so I guess I'm not "every evangelical".

    February 9 at 9:19am · Like
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    Michael -The only way you can see this happening is to see the world without your community's filters. Truly not any easy thing, everything in your life has been designed to keep your filters firmly in place.- I believe the whole Bible is the inerrant Word of God...I don't need to be spoon fed in order to believe. If God said it, then it's true...period end of story. God is God and I am not...that means my knowledge base/experiences, what I've been told etc...does not matter. Like I said before, it does not matter how you or I "feel" about it or what our "take" is on it... God's Words are true and every man is a liar" (Romans 3:4)

    February 9 at 9:25am · Like
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    Michael  -I didn't leave the faith because I did not understand or believe the bible. I left it BECAUSE I understand and believe the bible. I did Christianity for nearly 30 years... I left it because I get it.- I will continue to pray for you...I believe that God has a plan for you and a good one!  God is a personal God...you say that believe the Bible, then what are you going to do with Jesus? If this whole world was gone and it was just you and Him what would you say to Him? This world is filled with religions, different belief systems but only one religion (Christianity) worships a living God, why wouldn't you want to? I do believe that at the end of your life that you will not ultimately leave the faith but when you are old you will not depart from it and that's a good thing 

    February 9 at 9:35am · Like
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    Andrew Hackman Well, I honestly think the chances of my talking to Jesus after death are about on par with your meeting up with Krishna... and I give it the same amount of concern you give to meeting Krishna... not much.
    
    But I have no fear of meeting any deity upon death. I agree with Marcus Aurelius:
    
    “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

    February 9 at 9:57am · Like
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    Michael  So your view is that we've been created for no specific purpose and it's better and more reliable to trust your eternal destiny to the views of a man (Marcus Aurelius) rather than God...and you're honestly telling me that you have no fear of meeting God after you die so much so that you're willing to die and then find out?

    February 9 at 10:25am · Like
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    Andrew Hackman I fear it the same way you fear meeting Vishnu, or Joseph Smith (whose ok you will have to get in order to get into heaven) or Allah... or any number of a pantheon of gods whose afterlife judgement men fear. 
    
    But you don't spend much energy worrying about them do you? Why not? Because you were never taught to. You don't believe in them. 
    
    If you had grown up Mormon, you would have asked me:
    
    "So your view is that the Book of Mormon is not true and you are going to trust your eternal destiny to man, rather than the living prophet God placed on Earth in the latter days? You are honestly telling me that you have no fear of being banished to outer darkness?"
    
    Instead, you ask me the Christian version of those questions.... because you were raised Christian.
    
    In the end, you and I are both Atheists Michael. We both have a myriad of religious beliefs that we don't fret over, because we don't believe them. The adherents of these religions feel you and I are arrogant, or blind, or deceived, or in rebellion, or ignorant - for not submitting to their faiths. We both have incredibly similar lists of religions we shrug at. My list is just one larger than yours.

    February 9 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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    Michael  I wouldn't consider myself an Atheist simply because I don't believe in someone else's religion...the reason I don't fret is because I don't simply subscribe to any man-made religion but rather to the 1 true God and his Son the only one true mediator Jesus who is alive and is currently interceding for us. It's not arrogance but rather confidence in knowing the Truth and embracing it...again for me to believe that we've been created for no specific purpose is not logical. Once the Bible is no longer considered as the inerrant Word of God, human reasoning and a multitude of differing theories become prevalent and expected since we are all created with a desire to worship the Creator. I do feel that because God has said it's impossible to please Him without Faith and that the righteous will live by Faith and that in the end the enemy is defeated by our Faith...that means to me that to truly obtainable an accurate revelation of God, Faith is required. Human reasoning and logic is not sufficient otherwise we wouldn't need God since we could obtain revelation on our own.

    February 9 at 1:07pm · Like
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    Brook  "but these go to 11"

    February 9 at 1:19pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman I know Mike... you think your religion is different and all the others are misfires. I have gotten versions of your last paragraph from many other faiths as well. Each of them special and different from the rest. I remember thinking that as well. It is like the picture of the bunny, that some people look at and see a duck... while others see both. In that sense, I once saw Christianity as a bunny... but because of some of my experiences I then saw it as a duck too.l Once you see the duck, you can't unsee it... and to a person who sees it only as a bunny, they can't understand why I can't see it ONLY in its special, singular form too. Each subgroup religion sees theirs as the one, unique, true item.
    
    http://sharepoint.chiles.leon.k12.fl.us/techportal/Brain%20Images/Brain%20Tools%20Pictures/bunny%20duck.jpg
    

    
    

    http://sharepoint.chiles.leon.k12.fl.us/techportal/Brain%20Images/Brain%20Tools%20Pictures/bunny%20d

    sharepoint.chiles.leon.k12.fl.us

    February 9 at 1:22pm · Like · Remove Preview
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    Michael  So do you want help to see it as a bunny again?  All of those other faiths worship a god that is no longer living...that to me would be a significant difference 

    February 9 at 2:50pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman No, because that would require me to see unreality again.  I have come to regard reality as a friend.
    
    You say your deity is real/living, while all the others are not. They of course would say the opposite... and have... I have heard all of this "but the difference is our god is real" stuff from many a religion. To someone on the outside of all of it, none provide a compelling reason to spend any time pursuing it.

    February 9 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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