Hell No!

I have really been committing to get back into reading. I just got done with Brian Mclaren's "The Last Word". I am presently reading "Blue Like Jazz" and upon recommendation, shall be taking up "the Sparrow" next.

I highly recommend "The Last Word". If nothing else, it give you a peek into some alternative thoughtlines that exist in the Christian world.

Brian McLaren really challenges the typical evangelical thoughts on and purposes in preaching Hell. I found a letter that I sent out to a bunch of friends about 6 years ago when I first started wrestling with Hell. Here is that letter, and my thoughts at the time:

Hello all,
I have been hit by a new theological trauma that has been giving me the runabout for the past few days, so I thought I would toss it out to you and see what you think.

It all came about the other day when I was listening to talk radio. There was an atheist on there begrudging the whole "see you at the pole" event. He was a usual ranter and party-liner, but one of the callers said something that really threw me.

“It is not so much that I don’t believe in God,” he said. “But I have a hard time believing that a being such as has been described would use violence of the ultimate sort as punishment for non-compliance."

How had I missed that question all these years? We all know the arguments for why “a loving God sends people to Hell,” but in the moment following that question, all of those arguments fell apart for me.

Many of you have read C.S. Lewis’s The Problem of Pain. Though the issue of pain is a stumbling block for some, and though it is a struggle to deal with at the time, it can always be brought to near triviality in the scope of eternity. As Paul said in countless different ways in the epistles “I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us”. I wish Lewis had written a book called the Problem of Hell.

Here are the questions that have been rolling in my head the past couple days, which I am having difficulty finding solutions for.

First, there is the finality of it all. If suffering can be used as a tool to develop empathy, correct us, refocus us, cause us to go deeper, then there is an ultimate good to it. In my present paradigm, God can do nothing else. What man (or Satan for that matter) intends for evil, he can always turn it to a good. God can wrench glory from even the direst circumstances.

What then, does Hell provide? There is no ultimate good that can come out of it, because there is no opportunity for redemption. I realize the usual argument would be to say that they had an opportunity to accept salvation, but rejected it. This doesn’t seem to wash with me anymore for three reasons:

Can it truly be said the people who have rejected Christ have a clear understanding of what they are rejecting and what they are accepting in his place? I don’t think so. I don’t think that most Christians have even begun to get a handle on this, let alone someone who has no familiarity with the ways and teachings of God.

IF such a person existed, could they be truly sane?

IF they were sane, is hell a reasonable result?

I think the reasonableness of hell is really hard for me to grasp. However rebellious or hideous a man may be; is hell a good solution? Eternal torture beyond measure?…forever?…. for the choices of eighty mortal years? When I sit down and consider that eternal destiny, I start to wonder.

Also, what would the reason be for such an extreme punishment? (And this is the ultimate extreme). I have trouble reconciling it with the character of God, as I understand it. Is this vindictiveness? Getting even? What possible motive could God have? Holiness alone does not seem to be enough. Holiness says sin cannot be in God’s presence. Hell is an eternity beyond a mere removal from God’s proximity.

Another curious point- what would motivate God to think up such a place in any case? He teaches me the proper way to think in Philippians. Hell could not come into that thought line. How does one, in line with goodness, contemplate the torture of his creatures?

I have started a casual study of scripture at this point, and have gotten few answers. The Bible has a lot to say about sending people there, but little reason why… other than they are sinners. This always leads me back to my list of questions.

Anyway, these have been my thoughts the past couple of days. Romans 11 says to ‘consider therefore, the kindness and sternness of God.” I am troubled considering that sternness.
Feel free to respond, or not, at your leisure.

Love God, Love his Children

Whom does the heart of God desire to dwell with?
People who bear his name, but despise their fellow men created in his image?
Or people who purport to have no interest in Him, but love their fellow men?

I try to think of this from my view as a Father.

A friend has affection for me, but despises my children?
An aquaintance has no interest in me, but loves on my children?

Whom would I prefer in my house?

Hmmmmm......

Train Them!

It says in Hebrews 12:
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
I read that scripture countless times back when I was a Bible Quizzer. At the time I took it to mean that the discipline God gives me will probably not be fun, but will be for my good. It was a hopeful passage.

I read it entirely different nowadays. Flip it around. Read it from the discipliner's point of view. Being a parent the past 8 years gives me a new perspective.

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful... a teachable moment in the life of my child is presented, but I don't feel like dealing with it... I would rather fiddle on the computer, or watch TV, or continue my conversation. To stop and address the situation will take time... this is painful.

Later on however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. If I take the time to parent now... to fulfill my responsibility, I will reap a harvest of righteousness and peace.

I write this with some trepidation, because I am a heading into boasting territory. But I will boast with a purpose.

My wife and I have great kids!

We often get compliments on their behavior, but I will occasionally hear something to the effect of, "Yes, but you have naturally compliant children."

I want to shout "NO!" This has not come without cost! My wife and I think about, consider, and discuss our parenting. We plan for how we will deal with situations. We read. We study. We observe and consult with successful parents. We observe unsuccessful parents to note what we want to avoid doing. We are very conscientious of our parenting. We take time to parent. We both would say that it is the single most important thing we do in our lives. The behavior of our children (or sometimes lack thereof) is NOT an accident.

Perhaps it is because I teach for a living that I am always looking for teachable moments.

The other day I carved a turkey and set aside the wishbone. I told my 4 year old son and my seven year old daughter about the game of the wishbone. I debated not mentioning the wishbone to them because my son is very sensitive and I knew he was going to lose.

No, I told myself, he is old enough to learn to lose properly.

Each child grabbed an end... made the wish... snap.... and my son's lip tightened, his foot slammed the floor, and frustrated tears began to well up in his eyes.

"Jacob...., no".

I sat down in front of Jacob and took both of his hands in mine.

"Jacob, I love you... please look at my eyes (I never discipline without eye contact). My son, you lost just now and I know you are frustrated because you wanted to win. There are times you win and times you lose. When you lose, you may not stomp your feet and cry. That is not right. Everyone loses sometimes don't they? When you lose... be happy for the person who won... and do you know what the right thing to do would be? (with his lips puckered he shakes his head)... you go over to the person who won and shake their hand like this (shake) and say 'Congratulations'. Do you think you could do that?"

My son nodded, took a final sniff, and walked over to my daughter and took her hand, "Congratulations Kaki" (his nickname for her). She replied with a thank you and a hug. Then they went off to play.

Now I by no means think that this will be the last time Jacob pouts and cries when he loses; but he will be taught each time that is not appropriate and will be shown what is appropriate. Perhaps someday soon, he will fly in that area on his own.

Until then, my wife and I will be looking for teachable moments, because we want that harvest of righteousness and peace... for ourselves and our children.

His Value System

I am often disappointed in our apparent lack of progress as a Christian Community. I count myself in this as well. Though we have created a fairly large sub-culture, the ways in which we have chosen to set ourselves apart- (in some cases) not drinking, not smoking, "accepting" Jesus Christ as our personal savior, going to church, etc... these things don't really bring about true change. At the end of the day we still tend to pursue things God would not; we value things he does not.

I think Jeremiah 9:23-24 gives a good peek into God's value system:

23 This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches,
24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice, and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

Scripture pegs us so well. We tend as humans to be impressed with others based on three things:
1. How smart someone is
2. How much influence (celebrity status) or power they have
3. How much money they have

In Jeremiah 9:23 we are specifically instructed NOT to be impressed with these things. Yet, People magazines cannot stay on the rack, we kiss up to people who have no character because of their influence, we crawl over each other to make a buck or get with someone who has the bucks. We are awed (or intimidated, also an incorrect response) by smart people.

This is also the standard in most of the Christian community. Our glory is not in our Redeemer, but in our house, degree, promotion, portfolio, etc..

In the American Church we have made a pecking order of people's worth - with pastors, authors, speakers, and singers at the top. I once heard a pastor comment to someone, "Well, if he wants to speak at MY church, perhaps he should start at the ground level and teach Sunday school."

Nice.

The Lord delights in our knowing Him, in Justice, in Righteousness, and in Kindness. I believe that when, as a people of God, we can make those the earmarks of our value system, we shall stand apart and shine without even trying.

Ring Tones Suck

I am not sure what large rock needs to be dropped on people's heads before they start realizing that there are really no redeeming qualities to cell phone ringtones. I have yet to hear a top 40's tune come blaring out of someone's purse or coat at a convenient time. I go to college on Wednesday nights, and at least once per class, one of those obnoxiously loud ringtones goes blaring out while the owner scrambles franticly through their purse in an attempt to squelch it. (To add insult to injury, the owner then proceeds to take 10 steps away from the group and carry on a loud conversation which we get the pleasure of hearing).

Ringtones rarely seem to bring the owner anything but embarrassment. Why are they used?

Nothing New Under the Sun

I was browsing through Wikipedia, and on their homepage today they were highlighting Joseph Smith. Well, being a good Utahn, I decided to peruse the article.

I had always known that there were a few splinter groups in the "restoration" movement, but after a few clicks I was overwhelmed with how many there were. I started bookmarking all of the different groups so I wouldn't lose track.

Since I live in Utah, I have been most aware of the LDS church which also happens to be the biggest of the groups. Of course, the mormons I know would state that theirs is the continuation of the church that Joseph Smith founded.

However, as I purused through the various off-shoots of what Joseph Smith started, most of them make the same claim. As you read through their websites, they talk about their authority, revelations God has made to them, and the testimonies they have received. These are all things each of them claim and most would say are exclusive to them.

I am not writing this as a judgment or critique of mormons, but rather with a fascination for how closely this mirrors various things I saw growing up as a charismatic/evangelical.

One of my earliest church memories is when the Pastor of the Lutheran church we were attending left Lutheranism with a bunch of his congregation to become independent. Then someone within his church broke off from him and my family went with that group. Over the years people left the church we went to to join other groups or make new ones.

The one thing I noticed as a kid was that we left churches because the church was wrong, or that people left our church because they were wrong. The convenient commonality was that everyone else was wrong.

Most of us who have grown up in church environments unknowingly have been indoctrinated that we are right and others are wrong (or at least, not as right as we are). Since being in Utah, I have found that for a Mormon to not buy the package deal of Mormonism would be apostisizing (is that a word?). For an Evangelical, to do less than buy the whole package is compromising. I believe Catholics use the word heresy.

In any case, if you want to pursue God, you have to kind of put yourself into a box - and to think out of that box is to damage your potential of getting to know God (and perhaps even damn you).

One of the interesting points of many of the sub-groups of Mormons, is that they justify their stance of being the "true" church by various signs and/or revelations. God revealed this or told us that. This or that event happened in response to our prayers said with the proper authority (therefore, we are the true one).

Again, I am not saying that to rip on my mormon neighbors, but rather I sit here slightly awed thinking, "That is exactly how I grew up!" Different churches, and different theological backgrounds... but almost the exact same wordings and events. The writer of Ecclesiasties had it right, there really is "nothing new under the sun". No church group seems to be safe from the belief that they have a corner on the god market. They have an insight that everyone else is less privy to or as Butch Cassidy said, "I see clearly while the rest of the world wears bi-focals".

Of course, any of my denominational, non-denominational, pentecostal, or LDS friends who read this would probably interpret it the same way - that what I am saying is true of all the other groups, but the difference in their case is that they really are the right group.

I remember hearing a sermon by Peter Marshall years ago called, "The blessing of being wrong". He asked how many times in our lives have we experienced an insight into a topic and felt we were right... then later, when our opinion changed on the topic, we were REALLY right. Perhaps a later change made us REALLY, REALLY right. He suggested that given those patterns in our lives and in our churches, that perhaps there might be a blessing in being wrong.

I don't know how one gets around this prideful arena. Even as I write this, as I suggest that one should be comfortable not knowing, that one should leave room for possibility, am I not also inferring that I have an insight that most are not privy to?

They will not grow out of it!

One of the phrases you will often hear if you deal with children to any great extent is "It's just a stage they are going through." I have even said it myself on occasion.

However, I am now inclined to think that it is an incorrect phrase, and one that has the potential for lasting damage. I think this is because the phrase implies that it is actually a mere valley the child is riding through at the moment and that, if we are patient, the child will come out of naturally.

One need only listen to conversations at work, or drive 10 minutes on the road, or stand at a service desk at Walmart to get another view. We meet people everyday who never grew out of that "stage". The pride, impatience, manipulativeness, stubborness, bullying, or any of dozens of horrid behaviors we find in adults, with a little research, could probably be traced right to their childhood. John's selfishess at 36 can probably be traced to Johnny's at 6. Perhaps some of it's rougher edges have been worn down, but the core of it still radiates smartly.

The danger for the parent is the assumption that the child will grow out of it. I now believe that there is little to no chance of that happening. Entropy applies: without work, a system will move towards disorder. Why do we think that a child will lose a negative trait and develop a positive one with no intervention?

Lewis commented in Mere Christianity that it is not damning to be on a wrong road, but one's redemption relies on moving to the right one. One can correct a flawed math problem by going back and reworking it... not by simply going on.

There was boy in the park this summer who had no concept of sharing. Sharing his toys that is, he felt other children's toys should be group property. The boy was very loud in his stance, and the mother finally blushed and anounced to the other moms present, "It is just a stage he is going through".

The mother did her son no service that day. That teachable moment could not have been more ripe. But her personal embarassment, or perhaps laziness, won the day. Social pressure may cause the boy to settle down a bit over time, but he is not learning from his parents that the behavior is wrong - and this at a time when his foundations for right and wrong are being laid.

One thing that being a teacher has taught me over the years is that very little learning occurs where there is not explicit instruction. Children are intelligent, but they are not sophisticated. They have too little background knowledge to develop a proper ethos through everyday observation. There are too many mixed messages. Modeling good behavior in the home is not enough. Good behavior must be taught.

Cursing Men

I have an idea of something I want to write about that is new, and not simply a rehashing of something I have submitted in another group. However, I do not have time at the moment to get into that idea, so here is the latest rehashing:

I am going to use James 3 as a starting point.

9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.

I find it interesting that James did not say "we curse fellow Christians", but rather opened the floodgates to include everyone. We curse men who are the image of God. I think I used to unconsciously interpret "they will know we are Christians by our love" to mean our love for each other as fellow Christians. As if "worldly" people would see our clique of loving fellowship from the outside, and desire to jump in so they could be loved too. I now see that my image of Christ is best represented to others in my ability to love and apply grace to everyone as best I can.

Ok, let me swing this around to my ultimate point, because my burden with it has been growing since I moved to Utah and it is starting to peak. I have this T-shirt that some of you may have seen. It says "Lord Jesus, your sheep have sharp teeth", and it has a drawing of a sheep with oversized, vampire-ish, teeth. Silly picture, but it is supposed to shine a light on how out of place we look as Christians when we use our speech to dig into someone.

It has been troubling to me how socially acceptable it is in Christian circles to mock and belittle the faith of our LDS neighbors. If someone were to make a belittling comment about race during a small group or at church, they would probably be met with stunned silence. I am finding we are not so graceful when it comes to "cursing", as James would say, our LDS brothers who have been made in the image of God.

I have a friend of mine in Michigan who has never cut someone down in front of me. It is an amazing gift that I have tried to emulate. We have as a K2 core value to "watch each other's back", what if, as James encourages, we applied that to all men who are made in God's likeness. I know this is easy for me in a way. One of the best friends that I have made in the Valley here is LDS. Because he is my friend, I am committed to protect him and support him. It is harder for me to do that with my Charismatic brothers and sisters since I grew up charismatic. It is easy for me to be more critical there, so it is often best that I simply hold my tongue. I know for many here in the valley, since they have a history with the LDS, it is hard not to launch into some digs.

James goes on to say: 11 Can both fresh water and salt[a] water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

The interesting thing is that Salt water ruins fresh water. Any fresh is instantly ruined by the application of salt water (even in small doses). It does not work the other way around. Our cursing of men is not sanctified by our praise to God. However, our praise to God will be spoiled by our cursing of men.

Everyone I know needs to know Jesus better tomorrow than they do today; my evangelical and LDS neighbors included. I do not necessarily know the best way to encourage someone of the LDS faith in their relationship with Christ, but I am confident we cannot portray a Christ who loves and adores them through our rolling eyes, snickering, pot-shots, impatience, and superior attitude.

I think because the LDS faith is so Huge here, we consider our words of no harm (like the way people around the world trash America - they almost deserve it for being so dominant). It affects the individuals though. They are not knowing us by our love.

Grace VS Works?

I recently chimed in on a listserve discussion that I am in with a few guys from my church on the book of James. I tossed out the thought I have previously shared on this blog that I do not buy the Grace over Works stance. I spent some time thinking through my response and writing takes me forever, so I thought I would give my response more airtime so here it is:

I knew I couldn't bring this up without it being somewhat contentious, but it is not my intent. However, I think my point was unclear. My comparison with Grace Vs Works and Predestination Vs. Free will is that there is no vs. However, people often cling to one or the other and oppose those who do not cling to the side they do. There are many who deny the role of predestination and state that it MUST be free will. There are people who look at it conversely and fail to see the input and reality of the other side. Some people see Grace and Works as opposite or perhaps as one not needing the other. I tend to play Devil's advocate. I hear lots of Grace, I throw works scripture out there.... hear works, I throw Grace.

I think some of this comes down to the definition of Saved. Is Saved going to Heaven? Is Saved not going to Hell? Is saved what I am or what I am being? Is Saved a status or a process? Do we get saved or are we saved. Who saves? Do we play a role?

I am not convinced that because we are saved by grace that we cannot be saved by works. I am not sure that one precludes the other.

When Jesus separates the sheep from the goats it will be based on what they did or didn't do. There is no mention of Grace here (though I believe Grace is still in operation). This is not Theology or Doctrine. A timeless Messiah was looking at future history and telling us how he made the call. You fed me... you clothed me... you visited me.. Nothing is said here about what doctrine or theology the people subscribed to. No mention of a sinner's prayer. No repentance. Not even necessarily an awareness of who the sheep did these deeds for (as much as you've done it for the least of these, you have done it for me). Jesus presents himself in the distressing disguise of the poor, the sick, the lonely.... and one is a sheep or a goat depending on our response to him.

Saved by one's actions? Seems possible here.

It seems these people are possibly credited righteousness as Romans 4 says Abraham was. Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness. He wasn't righteous, but he was treated as if he was (and this was before Christ). James says that Abrahams faith and works went together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

I think God is actively looking to credit people righteousness. Christ allows him to make that desire complete.

Romans 2 states " God will give to each person according to what he has DONE. To those who by persistence in doing DOING GOOD, seek glory, honor and immortality he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking, who reject the truth, and follow evil there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for EVERYONE who does evil: first for the Jew then for the Gentile. But glory, honor and peace for everyone who DOES GOOD: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

If you do a keyword search on DO, or DONE throughout scripture you get a lot of hits. No one talked about DOING more than Christ (though the Apostles make a nice second). Does Christ "save" someone who lives for self? I think his reaction to the Pharisees show that he has no interest in the right words, right theology, right doctrine while living a life of self interest and indulgence.

On the other hand, the good Samaritan shows that Christ had tons of Grace for someone who had decidedly wrong doctrine but a heart of self sacrifice and love for his neighbor (and this dude never even said a sinner's prayer...Jesus is such a rebel). Perhaps Christ is deciding who to dispense his Grace to depending on what they do.

Forgive and you will be forgiven, with the measure you use it will be measured to you, love your neighbor as yourself, if you have two shirts give one to him who is in need. So little doctorine and theology... so much action.

Sorry guys, for me, this is a both/and (with lots of possiblilities and wiggle room). Try to seperate them and you get a mess.

Mercy Triumphs over Judgement

Here is a commentary I threw into a list serve study of James I am involved in. I figure I should get any writing I do up here (since I write so little).

I am new to the group, so I don’t know if what I have to say will be skipping ahead of where you are, or trailing behind.

Thanks for letting me in on this study. James and Romans are pillars of my theology. I became a Christian at 14 and started Bible Quizzing shortly thereafter. My first year of quizzing was on Romans and James, so my foundation was established by those two books. Looking back, I see that it was a great course in Christianity 101.

Quizzers around America are doing Romans and James again this year (done every 9 years now) and I have decided to do it with them from afar. So getting in on a James discussion will help keep me on track.

Not sure if there is an order, so if there is, let me know. For now tho, I am going to comment on 2:13 – because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

It seems that this is a fairly strong concept that runs throughout scripture – forgive, and you will be forgiven, with the measure you use it will be measured to you, judge not so as not to fall under judgment, at whatever point you judge the other you are condemning yourself because you who pass judgment do the same things. The list goes on.

I keep letting that thought spin thru my head. If I am not merciful, I will be judged without mercy. I WILL be judged without mercy. Not maybe, there are no outs listed in these scriptures. There is a one-for-one correlation.

I think I may have been trained by some of my Christian culture to by-pass these scriptures… almost as if they did not apply in my case. I think I almost add an unconscious addendum… it reads like this: – because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful; (unless you have accepted Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and Savior).

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins; (unless you have accepted Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and Savior).

As I have become older in my Christianity, I find myself viewing my salvation less like an event and more like a becoming. Verses like this (without the addendum) do not stress me or put me under undue pressure, but rather they remind of how seriously Christ takes this issue and how much he wants us to imitate the Father.

Plunk Plunk - There’s my first two cents with more to come.