I had this conversation with a friend today on Facebook. Overall, it actually occurred with his Pastor. It hit me a few ways. First, parts of it just served as Grade-A examples for my post from yesterday. It also reminded me of another South Park scene from that same episode. :)
It helped me understand and to give a little more grace to politicians who speak in sound bytes and catch phrases. I used Mormonism within an analogy about a larger point, and all of a sudden everyone thinks I am Mormon. Then I am on the receiving end of the perfunctory evangelical anti-mormon sermon. How can a politician dare say anything substantial when everyone goes bananas on key-words?
I have also noticed a tendency amongst many religious folks to take it personally if someone does not accept their faith. Atheists get a double dose of this disdain.
Lastly, it demonstrates that when people want to believe something... the needed logic will take care of itself.
____________________
James
This is one of thsoe statements where you could insert a "Wayne's World" "NOT!! after you say it. The universe shows the evidence of intelligent design so their must be an Intelligent Designer (God). One main reason people deny their is a God is that they don't want to be held accountable for their actions and sin, but rather live life in rebellion against Him.
8 comments:
Andrew, you have nailed the argument. One of the girls in my Daughter's class at the end of last school year told her that the assertion that our family was atheist caused the 5th grader to say, "That's offensive to us Mormons."
Offensive why? Your Facebook friend claims we have nothing to show for our atheism.... really and what does he have to show, objectively, in his Christianity? He claims there is evidence for his beliefs yet he neglects to name any of it.
It is also true that when you quote scripture to support your belief system you are engaged in circular logic. That is why Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions have been successful. Inbred logic does not require critical thought nor does to require proof.
Atheist are reviled because we require evidence and when there is an absence so goes our belief. It doesn't mean we don't hug or children, love our spouses, fail to pay taxes, or think sunsets are beautiful....
Just got back from a baby roast. Nothing Iike eating tender, young babies. :)
Sadly many, if not most, Christians are clueless when it comes to atheism.
Let's suppose the natural world gives evidence of a creator. That is one thing, but jumping from a creator to the creator is the god of the Christian bible is something very different. There is no evidence for such a claim. Such a claim requires faith, believng that what the bible says is
true.
As your commenters showed, No matter what the issue is the b-i-b-l-e is the final answer.
That's why bible thumpers can say there is no such thing as an atheist. Romans 1,2 says so, end of story.
Bruce
Yes indeed you are so right. As a non-fundamentalist Christian, what saddens me about all this is the way it sells Christianity short. It reduces God to the level of a magical being, and then requires that he prove himself through magic tricks like healing people. These "proofs" will never prove anything, and are only of any value to those who already believe.
People come to belive for completely other reasons - some because they are brought up to believe and don't know anything else, others because their search for meaning or community brings them to the church door. When they arrive there, whether they stay will depend entirely on whether they find what they are looking for. In these fundamentalist churches, often the strong sense of identity and a genuine warm welcome will blind people (particularly those with less education) to the fact that what a lot of what is being said is nonsense. But teachers and pastors, who are supposed to educate their congregations, should know better. Otherwise, longer standing believers will be leaving by the back door as fast as new ones come in the front.
Wow, talk about adventures in missing the point! Your argument was articulate and crystal clear. This is a great example of the difficulty in communication with people of faith (certain groups of them, anyway).
How can you talk with someone who thinks the Bible is the final answer to everything? YOU CANNOT! Great post Andrew. It displays the typical response of the "Bible-thumper".
Thanks for the thoughts everyone!
I thought the Pastor's parting comment (I saw no point in continuing) was telling. The natural position of the true believer is defensive... so everyone is "attacking" his beliefs. He probably thought himself gracious for bearing me no ill will. :)
There's not a shread of evidence for mormonism in the whole history until Joseph Smith came with his fabricated history with no support in history or archaeology whatsoever.
Just saying it is true doesn't prove a thing if you just put the faith on a base of un-supported tales easily to disprove and throw in the trash bin without an inch of pity.
Why would one be praying and wanting it to be true if it isn't supported by evidence, rather the opposite, massive evidence against Joseph Smith and his false prophesies.
Mormonism doesn't exist anywhere in history. The Bible has 24 000 copies of the New Testament, all telling the unison message of sufficient grace in only believing that Jesus died for all our sins, past, present and future sins.
Why do Mormons bash God's word that God has preserved, that prove the monotheistic view of God, and rebukes the polotheistic view as falsehood?
Is that a genuine question anon?
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