Into the Trash Can

It is a testament to the grooming and indoctrination that children are subjected to that the moral horrors of this story do not occur to most American believers.  I actually spent decades siding with Jehovah on this story.

Growing up learning Greek Mythology, I was very aware of the human frailties of the gods on Mount Olympus.  They were petty, cruel, and often downright nuts.  Yet, I couldn't connect the dots for that awareness with my god.  I would read passages of scripture where Jehovah/Yahweh was being as awful as any Greek deity... but I just couldn't put 2 and 2 together.  I could spot the holes in other religions easily... but remained oblivious to my own.

The religious scholar, Bart Ehrman, has an explanation for this.  He says it is because we read the holy books of other religions objectively but we read our own devotionally.  That hit me like a bolt from Thor's hammer when I heard it.  I decided to try reading my Bible objectively.

Whoa, Nellie!  I had a Damascus road experience.  The scales fell from my eyes.  It was like reading a completely different book.  For the first time, it seemed really problematic that blood was painted over doorposts so that God would know which children NOT to kill.  How on earth had that not bothered me before?

For weeks after that revelation, I poured over scripture finding insults to humanity I had never "seen".  My god was just like all the other gods I had read about - just as petty, cruel, and often downright nuts.

It has now been over a decade since I have really read my bible.  While cleaning recently, I found it, dust-covered, underneath a dresser.  The Amplified translation, red cloth case, page after page highlighted with notes in the margins.  Unceremoniously, I took it outside and dumped it in the trash can.

I know folks still find use in reading it objectively.  Like the Greek Myths, there is value to be found when read as a story.  But for me, having been so indoctrinated, the greater value was in a clean break.  My moral compass can be encouraged and refined by books that do not, in my case, have so much baggage and negative history.

Teaching and Tacos

I often hear people say, "Kids are natural learners.  They are curious.  Just don't stand in their way!!"

Ummm, no.  SOME kids are natural learners.  Some are curious.  Others would just like to watch TV and eat tacos thank you very much.

I know this because if I only did what I WANTED to do... I would watch TV and eat tacos.

But, I have the self-discipline to know that path would make me obese and lonely... so I do other things and go to work.

Now, what is true is that most American classrooms are not meeting most kids' needs.  Some kids excel in academic disciplines.  They love bookwork.  They love to write.  They love to solve equations.

Others prefer movement.  They want to be outside.  They want to tear things, twist them, bend them, throw them.

Some folks love to be with people ALL DAY!  For others, an hour or two is MORE than enough.

Some kids have been reading voraciously since they were two.  They walk into 2nd grade on Harry Potter 4 and are starting to worry about what happens when they finish Deathly Hollows at the end of the month.

Others come in hoping that since they got through an entire Clifford book this week, they might be excused from reading for a while.

In our system, the Potter and the Clifford reader go to the same class because they have hit that magic age of 7.  Yes, ladies and gentlemen... your child's core curriculum for the year will be set, not by their motivation, not by their interest, not by their present level... but by how old they are.  

We just toss them all in together and wish those teachers the best of luck.  🙂

Bring Them To Church?

I read this on Facebook:

"Bring them to church‼️‼️ Saturate their lives with the Word of God. Even if they lay on the floor. Even if they need 437 goldfish and a sucker to be quiet. Even if you stand in the back swaying back and forth holding them. Even when it’s hard. Even when your row looks like a small hurricane just came through. Bring them to church. Let them see you worship. Let them see you pray. Let them see you running toward the Savior ... because if they don’t see and learn these things from you, who are they going to learn them from? 

The world will teach them it’s not a priority. The world will teach them it’s okay to lay out, not to pick up their Bibles. The world will direct them so far off course, confuse them, and misinform them that just being “good” is enough. The world won’t teach them about Jesus. That’s our job. 

Bring them to church‼️‼️"

Oh... the messages of conservative/fundie Christianity. 🤢🤢🤮  When they start using the phrase "the world" as a pejorative, you know you are about to enter a dark episode of the Twilight Zone.

"The world will direct them so far off course, confuse them, and misinform them that just being “good” is enough."

There is so much wrong with this sentence... and it sits at the core of the unhealthiness of this form of Christianity.

First, it is an invitation to a lifelong mental hampster wheel.  Jesus said that his yoke is easy and his burden light... but this perspective is anything but.  It keeps the believer in a perpetual state of feeling they don't measure up, that they have never done enough, and even what they have done is somehow tainted.

Second, it makes "good" suspect.  A believer of this stripe gets to negate the work of their fellow humans.  In my faith community, the work of great people doing great deeds was routinely brushed aside as having little value.  A life of character formation founded on good behavior and good deeds often gets replaced with vacuous piety. 

Third, the insecurity of never being good enough becomes a bludgeon that leadership uses to keep congregations in line. 

Lastly, it creates a chasm that divides the believer from their neighbors.  Under this thinking, the believer really only feels comfortable around those in their faith- as "the world" (everyone else) will only try to confuse them, misinform them, and direct them off course.  Responding to life this way sets up a vicious circle of behaviors and attitudes in the believer that make them want to separate themselves from their neighbors... and makes their neighbors happy to let them do so.

And then these believing parents encourage one another to drag their children into this.

America That Was

A few years ago, my son (14) and I watched the mini-series "11/22/63".  In the story, James Franco goes back in time in an attempt to stop the Kennedy assassination.

There are a number of scenes that depict the racism and sexism of the time.  In one instance, a black woman runs out of gas and walks 12 blocks to a service station.  The attendant refuses to service her and points her to a station a mile away that will serve "her kind".

My son was taken aback by these scenes.  He could not wrap his head around such blatant inhumanity.

It reminded me of a conversation he and I had a few years earlier.  Utah's 10th court was deciding whether gay marriage would be allowed in our state.  There was a leader from the LDS church on the radio stating why the church stood against gay marriage.  My son was concerned about how this would affect friends of ours who had been married in a state that honored gay marriages.  He asked me, "What does the church want?  For them to get a divorce?"

I envy the clarity and openness my children have on these issues.  I did not start to work on things like equality until I was in my 30s.  Even now, approaching 50, I find I am still digging out roots of bad thinking.  For my kids, seeing clearer on issues of race, gender, and equality seems so much more second nature.

My kids give me hope for a better future.  We will need it because many Americans have forgotten where we came from.  They seem eager to undo our progress and send us back to a time when it was acceptable to point to a sign and say, "We don't serve your kind here!"

 

Children and Religion

The video above is an enlightening watch. As I viewed it, I had a number of flashbacks to my own childhood. I traveled in religious circles and attended a school where being "slain in the Spirit", as shown here, was very normal.

The expressions on the faces of the children are so telling - Is this what I am supposed to do? Am I supposed to fall? Is that what you want? Should I be scared?

You can see which children have not yet been brought into the culture and which ones know the game.

And it is a game. It has rules and rewards. You can play it well and you can play it poorly. Acceptance and popularity within the community are determined according to your participation. Whatever one's flavor of religion, you are often instructed from your youngest age how to navigate the culture of your religious community. There are behaviors and rituals which will give you words and looks of affirmation if you partake. There are also ideas and practices which solicit community dismay.

This can sound nefarious, but I don't think that is necessarily so. Impressionable children accept these things because the community encourages it... but likewise, the community received the same directives when they were children... and so on... and so on.

I do think parents can instruct their children without indoctrinating them.  Parents can present information impartially and teach their children to make reasonable judgements. However, it takes a lot of intentionality.

Love God - Love Your Loved Ones Less

Yesterday, my brother shared an article on Facebook concerning Evangelical pastor Francis Chan's challenge for Christians to stop idolizing their family and put Christ's mission first. He asked for his readers' thoughts. After perusing the article, I wrote:

"A: Chan believes anyone who does not "have a relationship" with his god will be tortured for eternity by said god - so out the gate, I am convinced that his view of god is going to be harmful to humanity. Ergo any thought he has to add about how a believer should go about spiritual pursuits, in my view, is going to be highly suspect.

B. Chan is encouraging you to put the most important relationships of your life on the back burner so you can go out and... well, at this point it gets vague... be radical, and all out, and live over the edge! This too will probably end badly. Not for Chan, Chan will get awesome book deals and speaking engagements out of this. He will get lots of perks.

The followers of Chan? Not so much. They will probably mess up relationships, wax and wane between guilt and euphoria until something gives, and make a lot of financial and life decisions with no more consideration than a role of the dice.

My challenge to Christians... stop idolizing... period."

Then this morning, I read an article by Libby Anne over at Love, Joy, Feminism, where she shared about growing up with that evangelical mindset of near paranoia about making sure everything and everyone in your life was undervalued when compared to God.

"I also remember worrying that I loved my family more than I loved God. I was taught that this was wrong—that it made my family idols. I felt so conflicted over this, and purposed time and again to love God more than I loved my parents or siblings."

Reading both of those articles made me reflect on how real that topic was to me growing up. I regularly saw folks give up various past times and pleasures because they were concerned these things were becoming an "idol" in their life. I many times abandoned enjoyments, passed on opportunities, or sabotaged relationships because I thought these things would "hinder my walk with God". Jesus needed to be ultimate (whatever that meant) and nothing could even be a close second.

One of the musical heroes in my circles growing up was named Keith Green. I lived and worked at Green's ministry for 6 months when I was 18.  He wrote a song where he pointed out that everything in his life took 2nd place to Jesus. Keith speaks of his marriage in this way:

"As I told her when we wed, I'd surely rather be found dead, than to love her more than the one who saved my soul."

There was a time when I heard that song and that line and felt it was a powerful testimony of dedication to Jesus - now I see it as a dysfunctional mess.

Imagine a husband insisting to his wife that she love him more than the children. Contemplate what kind of mother would tell a daughter that, if the daughter loved her brother more, then the daughter was unworthy of her mother's love.

Does any reasonable person consider this jealous, competitive perspective in any way loving?

My Journey to Atheism - Part 2

Here is part 2 of my discussion with my brother about leaving the faith. We talk about why I couldn't stop at Agnosticism and what effect this all had on my family. If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, you can find it here:  Part 1

My Journey to Atheism - Part 1

I want to recommend to you my brother's podcast. Steve is a Christian believer whose faith journey has led him to ... more open pastures ... in the past half dozen years. Steve and I have both gone through a lot of changes over our decades as brothers, but no matter where we were politically, philosophically, or religiously, we have always managed to have excellent dialogue. One reason is because Steve, at his core, is a great conversationalist and that really comes through in the podcast. Be it discussions of faith, stories from his month long walk on the Camino de Santiago, or opinions about the latest Star Wars movie, his new podcast has proven to be a worthy listen on my list.

In his latest episode, Steve interviews me about my journey from a life of faith to atheism. We talk about Hell theology, life among the Mormons, and how Evangelicals respond to diversity.  We had a great conversation, in fact, it lasted over 2 hours. So Steve split it in half and this is part one. Enjoy!

What Harry Said To Voldermort

I have been watching the Harry Potter movies with my son over the past few weeks while he has been finishing up the book series.  As he read through Book 7, there were times he would just set down the book, stare blankly at it, and sigh heavily.

I knew what he was feeling.

The last time he did that, as he neared the end of book, I asked him, "Fred?"

He looked up at the ceiling, ".......yeah......"

We watched the final movie tonight. I had forgotten what a good job they had done with it.  I commented to Jake that I thought they got everything right but the final fight with Voldermort.

Jake agreed, "They should have kept in what Harry said to Voldermort.... that was important..."

It is probably self centered of me, but I love that Jake loved those books.

I recall that, in a previous post, I had thanked Ms. Rowling for all that her books had given me over the years.  Let me also add a thank you as a father, for what you have given my son.

Should Our Kids Say The Pledge?

As you have probably read, or heard in the news, there is a court challenge in Massachusetts over the phrase "under God" in our pledge.  Atheist parents, and I assume other non-Christian parents, object to their children having to make this declaration.

As an Atheist, I share their concern but I feel this is simply a symptom of a much more problematic tendency resulting from our Western team-competition mentality.

If you listen to what is being said, the children are "pledging allegiance" to something they do not yet understand. They are applying a signature, when they have not read the contract.

I cringe when I see young children being baptized.  I recently attended a child baptism. The parents beamed as they gushed over their child with compliments.

"We are so proud of you for making this decision to be baptized" they said; and the crowd gave its assenting nod (at my previous church they would hoot and holler).

I once heard a young teen declare that the United States was "the best country in the world." This was stated by a child I know has never traveled abroad, nor spent any time researching alternative economic or political systems.

In all of these, and similar situations, we have taught our children to have certainty in areas in which they have no knowledge or experience. They have been trained to make statements of an absolute nature, and to regard with suspicion anyone who does not share their certainties. From what I have observed, these children grow up, not only being weak in critical thinking skills, but regard with disdain those who practice such skills.

How much better a citizenry we might have if we taught our children to withhold judgement on matters in which they are not yet educated. What if we taught them it is ok to abstain from opinion when they are not well versed in the subject? What if they really understood the old proverb "Every argument sounds correct, until the other side is presented?

Instead, we train our children to parrot words they do not understand; make declarations on topics in which they are not schooled; and enter into commitments they are too young to comprehend.

I believe we can do better....

God, No! By Penn Jillette

I have been listening to the audiobook of God, No! for the past week on my drives to and from work. It is wonderful. Penn does his own reading, which MAKES the book. I can't imagine anyone else being able to deliver his material. Penn's reading is so casual and animated, you can imagine you are sitting across from him at a pub while he dominates the conversation. I have not laughed so hard in a long time. I have never seen his magic show, but if he does sleight of hand half as well as he spins a yarn - it must be something to see.

Penn weaves in and out of religion and atheism, often just sharing an amusing personal story to highlight a life lesson. His vocabulary and mode of speech is often joyously crass as he explains his passions, however, you never doubt this man has a heart of gold. Still, Penn says fuck and cocksucker with such wild abandon that I make sure I am a fair distance from school before pressing play.

One part that particularly caught me was as he told the story of a Hasidic Jew turned atheist he met after the show. The man wanted Penn to help him lose his Kosher "virginity" by joining him for a bacon cheeseburger. Penn went on to talk about their friendship and some of his insights into the Hasidic faith. Though he could list a hundred things wrong with Hasidic Judaism, he did say that he -nevertheless- was envious of their community. I could relate - I feel that way about Mormonism. I am clear on all the points of disagreement I have with their faith, nevertheless, I find their community downright enviable.

Penn shares tales about performing magic, getting naked in zero gravity, being spurned in a gay bathhouse, and his love of women with tattoos and artificial breasts. Wit and wisdom are woven through his stories to create hours of entertainment and ideas with which to wrestle.

During various staff and class "get to know you" games, I often hear "If you could have dinner with one celebrity, who would it be?" After listening to this book, I would answer Penn Jillette!

Children and Religious Choice

Watch this video before reading... it is only a minute...

Andy, why do you pester people about their religion?  If it gives them peace, why do you care?

I get this question rather frequently... and I ask it of myself rather regularly.  Why do I care?  Is this just the need to be right wrapped in a different ideology?

If religion were just a pleasant set of dictums encouraging folks to be nice to each other, and giving peace about meeting loved ones after death.... well, there probably wouldn't be much to harp on.

However, religion is rarely so simple and innocent.  See the kid above? That could be a video of me. I remember feeling that same pressure around that age.

Andrew, if you have the opportunity to share the Gospel with someone and fail to, and they die tonight, their soul will be held to your account!

I did not go to Westboro. Mine was a fairly typical conservative evangelical church - of the kind that dominates the religious discussion and politics in America. Even as I got older and my faith became more liberal and I went to (seemingly) more liberal churches; I found the pressure in those churches for kids to evangelize their peers was strong.

I am sure the parents, and church, of this boy would say that he has made a commendable choice to follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I would argue that choice had nothing to do with it. In order to make a choice, you must have an unbiased education in all options. He has been completely brainwashed and never had any options in the matter. In truth, he is utterly defenseless before his family and religious community.

He never had a prayer....

Facebook Faith # 9: An Atheist and Evangelical in Conversation

The following is a conversation I had with an Evangelical friend of mine on Facebook concerning belief in God. I don't have these as much anymore since many of my Evangelical friends have defriended me on Facebook, or have merely removed me from their Newsfeed. One friend told me she had defriended me so she did not have to "put up with" my negative views on religion. Facebook, she believed, was not the place for me to be making such arguments. Somehow, she did not consider her constant stream of religious cliches' to be in the same "argument" category. :)

This is also a good conversation because Mike and I are cordial and respectful throughout...

I recognize that these discussions tend to be circular, so one might wonder whether or not they are worth having. I believe they are. Not so much because I think I will have any impact with the person I am in conversation with (as Brook makes clear), but rather with those who may be observing. My exit from Christianity may have happened much sooner had the internet been around when I was young. To be sure, my questions and doubts started early, but I had no one to bounce them off of. There were few avenues for questioning available to me as a young person. I think these conversations are worth having because there are still myriads of people who are unaware that there are other stories being told.

Andrew Hackman via Stuff Christian Culture Likes

February 8 at 11:39am · 

• Ministries that focus on evangelizing children do so under the belief that, the older a person gets, the less likely they are to become Christians.
  
  So... if you don't get em as kids, you probably won't get em.
  
  How this realization does not cause a reality check within their organization is mind-boggling....

  

  
  

  Sophia Investigates The Good News Club

  www.youtube.com
  

  In 2001 the Good News Club won a 6 to 3 Supreme Court case that gave them the right to set up evangelical ministries in public elementary schools. This docum...

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  • Darrin  and Thomas  like this.
  • 

    Darrin  Yep. Blatant brain washing.

    February 8 at 12:55pm via mobile · Unlike · 1
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    Michael  Or as God promises in Proverbs 22:6, "Train up a child in the way he should go: And when he is old he will not depart from it. " but I guess you're not old enough yet Andy...lol

    February 8 at 7:09pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman Nothing wrong with training, I educate kids for a living. However, even in many of the more liberal denominations, there is a whole lotta indoctrination going on. In fact, I can think of only one church where I actually saw religious education going on in the children's Sunday school. 

    February 8 at 7:34pm · Like
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    Michael  As Christians, it's our responsibility to make sure that our kids are trained in the way that they should go...not a church's or any organization.

    February 8 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
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    Darrin  How about, as a parent... its our responsibility. Why does religion have to be in the mix? I believe in freedom of choice, not indoctrination. Isn't that what the god presented in the Bible known as God supposedly wants? Freedom of choice?

    February 8 at 8:03pm via mobile · Like · 1
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    Michael  Sharing God's love and instructing my kids on Godly/Biblically based principles is a personal choice that we each have whether to do it or not...as for me and my house we have chosen to serve the Lord...No one is forcing you to do so...we each are created with a free will...thereby having freedom of choice...I personally don't understand why anyone would choose not to accept God's gift...but ultimately it is an individual choice. It is my belief, however, that there is never an absence of faith...everyone believes/worships something whether it's God or their own reasoning/intellect.

    February 8 at 8:24pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman You don't understand why anyone would choose not to accept God's gift... my Mormon friends hope everyone accepts the revelation of a living prophet and discovers the truth of the book of Mormon. Hare' Krishna's hope you partake in his love. The funny thing about religion is that one's religion is HIGHLY determined by geography. Most people worldwide tend to stay with the brand, or a sub-brand, of what they were raised with. That is not choice... it is what the guy in the video talked about, it is imperative that religion get you before your 14. Whatever religion your parents are... surprise, surprise, you will most likely be as well.
    
    I wish kids got a chance for that free will, but the truth is, in the majority of religious homes they simply don't. The world detests the Westboro Baptist folks, but they are just doing overtly what most Christian homes are doing covertly. Children have no more choice in the typical religious home than they do at Westboro.
    
    Even when I was still a Christian, I let my kids know they were free.
    
    http://mrhackman.blogspot.com/2010/04/exclusivism-and-parenting.html
    

    
    

    Hackman's Musings: Exclusivism and Parenting

    mrhackman.blogspot.com
    

    Andrew- I think you know my story. My Mom is 89 and "worries" about me leaving "the faith". She converses with my conservative, fundamentalist son (my eldest) about the situation, but won't say a word about it to me. I am an only child. Most probably the reason I don't hear about it. To her credit,…

    February 8 at 9:24pm · Like · Remove Preview
  • 

    Michael  I believe that everyone at some point in their life, myself included, had to decide what they believe regardless of what religious training they're exposed to. I also believe that there's value in being taught to stand for something and to have convictions even if initially kids beliefs mirror their parents. If kids are taught nothing, they will default to the religion of humanism/intellectualism, which is being taught in our public schools. So there is always indoctrination being propagated it's just the one that you choose to subscribe to. That's why I believe that you're always serving/believing in someone/something... Btw I know several people that were raised in Christian homes that are no longer Christians...so free will ultimately always wins.

    February 8 at 10:00pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman Michael, you make are making a number of wrong assumptions... well, I dont know that they are assumptions, but I know it is what Christians are taught to think... Why do you believe if a family does not believe as you do, the children are being taught "nothing"? Do you believe that Christian families are the only ones truly capable of teaching sincerity, honesty, compassion, determination, etc? Why would you believe non-christian kids are being taught nothing? I can roll out for you Mormons, Atheists, Catholics, Evangelicals, and a Hindu who could testify to you the solid nature under which my children are being raised... so I don't see where that point carries weight.
    
    You say humanism as if it were a bad thing... all humanism is a determination to to empower all people everywhere to lead good and happy lives. It is a solidarity and oneness.... not any slap to a deity. The fact that my kids love and support each other does not make me insecure... were there an eternal deity, I can't imagine him being put out by such a thing.
    
    And I can tell you that, as a school teacher, we are much too busy to be involved in any conspiracies to undermine the Christian god... I have enough trouble just making it to staff meetings. I don't have the energy for indoctrination of students.
    
    I understand that children will mirror their parents beliefs, but I think we can do more as parents to expose them to other choices that are available. I mentioned the one church that actually teaches religious studies to their children. During one term, they cover the Abrahamic religions, than the Eastern religions, then aboriginal and native religions. They even covered agnostics and atheists. How refreshing that they painted all these people as fellow human beings (humanism) rather than the enemy or the yet-to-be-converted.

    February 8 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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    Michael  I'm sure that other families that are taught differing religions may have the qualities that you list, however that does not minimize my belief that Bible is the inerrant Word of God...and since God has said there is only one mediator (Jesus)...that is what I believe...not because I am saying it, but because God is. I am not accountable for what others believe but I am accountable for what I do. I can see why it would be refreshing for a multi-theist or atheist to feel that it's refreshing for all religions to be considered as options for truth, however that's not what the Bible teaches. Bottom line for me is that God is God and I am not...that means I don't get to set the rules and I'm good with that. God came into this world that all might be saved...that is His Will. His message is one of hope, love and peace...so my view of non-Christians is not that they're the enemy but rather the mission field to share the good news of the gospel with and to pray for them....beyond that it's up to God to judge...not me.

    February 8 at 10:35pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman ".not because I am saying it, but because God is. "
    
    But... you did just say it.... and he didn't... and that is how that tends work with religious people.
    
    you also say you are basing your beliefs on "what the bible teaches" but that is problematic too. The bible teaches many things, and many of them contradictory. What really happens is Christians find a lifestyle that suits them, and then they find a church group with similar tastes, and they focus on the points of scripture that buttress those desires and tastes. The bible is used in varying degrees by over 30,000 different Christian groups... all saying their bible tells them so. Heck... Paul can't even agree Paul (assuming he wrote about half of what is claimed of him). After 30 years in Christendom, I have heard the bible say pretty much everything... and I particularly enjoy the bits that churches never touch.
    
    I have to say that one of the eye openers for me out here was to learn what it was like to be some one's "Mission Field". In the environments you and I were raised in, we really never got that experience. I wish everyone could feel what it is like to know you are someone's project or mission. I have learned it is just more more fulfilling to enjoy people for who they are.
    
    I get everything you are saying Michael. I have done it, felt it, said it, and believed it.
    
    Did you watch the video? It bothers me that they want these children to make "decisions" for Christ. Most kids don't even pick out their own clothes, do we adults really think children have the capacity to make such a decision. We would not encourage them to pick a spouse at 10. Why? Because they do not have the life skills in place yet for such a decision. It should say something about the appeal of a religion that needs to rob the cradle to get a convert.

    February 8 at 10:56pm · Like
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    Michael  I was saying specifically that God has said that there is only one mediator (Jesus) 1 Timothy 2:5. Since, I didn't write Timothy I didn't say it...lol. Through many years of Precept studies, I can definitely say that the Bible in context does not contradict itself...as far as church goes, I've attended Catholic, Non-denominational, Pentecostal, and have worked in a Baptist and Lutheran church...I can say that while much of religion is man-made, the core tenets of salvation are there in each denomination. My faith is not dependent on any church or denomination or in any person/pastor...trust me I have very little faith in any church....but I do have faith in Jesus and His Word. As to the Bible and the bits that churches never touch...it really doesn't matter...it doesn't matter how you or I view it or whether we like it...God is God and whether He's popular or PC to believe in is irrelevant...because at the end of the day He's God. I'll speak for myself and say it's impossible for me to look at my kids and believe that God is not their creator...or to try to believe that this world and all the intricacies are not designed by Him...and what other purpose are we here for...just for fun? lol Come on  As for your last point, I don't view sharing the love of Christ as exploitive to children...good news is not bad and if they can't understand it then that's ok too no harm done. I would say if you've heard the Bible say pretty much everything then I would say that's pretty sad...His Word is not that hard to understand so if people are using it improperly I guess they'll be accountable...even more reason to read and study it yourself  Don't allow imperfect people to preclude you from believing the Truth.

    February 8 at 11:39pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman - I don't view sharing the love of Christ as exploitive to children...good news is not bad and if they can't understand it then that's ok too no harm done.-
    
    Fish don't know that they are wet. I would not expect you to think of getting children to mindlessly parrot phrases and songs as being bad.... in fact it is rather cute, isn't it? The revealing thing is to show someone a DIFFERENT religion doing the exact same practices to children and suddenly the parroting doesn't look as cute. Show a bunch of kids you know being taught to parrot "There is no God but Allah!" or "The Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith is God's prophet". After seeing such things, I have heard Evangelicals refer to it as "brainwashing". Yet they participate in the same practices... I realized after living out here a few years that, if Mormonism is a cult, then so is Evangelicalism.
    
    -I would say if you've heard the Bible say pretty much everything then I would say that's pretty sad -
    
    And I would say you are probably pretty typical of most evangelicals who, when it comes to scripture, have studied only the party line. There are verses that you have quoted, used, and heard in sermons COUNTLESS times... while there are a myriad of verses you have never heard before. Subsets of Christianity all partake in a filtering process by which they pedestal scriptures that advance their community narrative, while eschewing verses that counter their core beliefs. The only way you can see this happening is to see the world without your community's filters. Truly not any easy thing, everything in your life has been designed to keep your filters firmly in place. However, as the growing number of "nones" indicates, it is happening more and more.
    
    -even more reason to read and study it yourself Don't allow imperfect people to preclude you from believing the Truth.-
    
    It was not a lack of knowledge of scripture that allowed me to leave the faith. My knowledge of the bible is pretty prodigious. I feel like Paul in Corinthians -If anyone thinks they knew their bible... I knew more.  In fact, I highly believe that if more Christians would vigorously study their bibles... and move outside the pre-set studies and plans... there would be less Christians. Few know the origins of their bible, most believe Matthew wrote Matthew and John wrote John. 
    I didn't leave the faith because I did not understand or believe the bible. I left it BECAUSE I understand and believe the bible. I did Christianity for nearly 30 years... I left it because I get it. 

    February 9 at 8:07am · Like
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    Michael  -After seeing such things, I have heard Evangelicals refer to it as "brainwashing". Yet they participate in the same practices... I realized after living out here a few years that, if Mormonism is a cult, then so is Evangelicalism.-
    I've never said that training kids in other religions is brainwashing...so I guess I'm not "every evangelical".

    February 9 at 9:19am · Like
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    Michael -The only way you can see this happening is to see the world without your community's filters. Truly not any easy thing, everything in your life has been designed to keep your filters firmly in place.- I believe the whole Bible is the inerrant Word of God...I don't need to be spoon fed in order to believe. If God said it, then it's true...period end of story. God is God and I am not...that means my knowledge base/experiences, what I've been told etc...does not matter. Like I said before, it does not matter how you or I "feel" about it or what our "take" is on it... God's Words are true and every man is a liar" (Romans 3:4)

    February 9 at 9:25am · Like
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    Michael  -I didn't leave the faith because I did not understand or believe the bible. I left it BECAUSE I understand and believe the bible. I did Christianity for nearly 30 years... I left it because I get it.- I will continue to pray for you...I believe that God has a plan for you and a good one!  God is a personal God...you say that believe the Bible, then what are you going to do with Jesus? If this whole world was gone and it was just you and Him what would you say to Him? This world is filled with religions, different belief systems but only one religion (Christianity) worships a living God, why wouldn't you want to? I do believe that at the end of your life that you will not ultimately leave the faith but when you are old you will not depart from it and that's a good thing 

    February 9 at 9:35am · Like
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    Andrew Hackman Well, I honestly think the chances of my talking to Jesus after death are about on par with your meeting up with Krishna... and I give it the same amount of concern you give to meeting Krishna... not much.
    
    But I have no fear of meeting any deity upon death. I agree with Marcus Aurelius:
    
    “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

    February 9 at 9:57am · Like
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    Michael  So your view is that we've been created for no specific purpose and it's better and more reliable to trust your eternal destiny to the views of a man (Marcus Aurelius) rather than God...and you're honestly telling me that you have no fear of meeting God after you die so much so that you're willing to die and then find out?

    February 9 at 10:25am · Like
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    Andrew Hackman I fear it the same way you fear meeting Vishnu, or Joseph Smith (whose ok you will have to get in order to get into heaven) or Allah... or any number of a pantheon of gods whose afterlife judgement men fear. 
    
    But you don't spend much energy worrying about them do you? Why not? Because you were never taught to. You don't believe in them. 
    
    If you had grown up Mormon, you would have asked me:
    
    "So your view is that the Book of Mormon is not true and you are going to trust your eternal destiny to man, rather than the living prophet God placed on Earth in the latter days? You are honestly telling me that you have no fear of being banished to outer darkness?"
    
    Instead, you ask me the Christian version of those questions.... because you were raised Christian.
    
    In the end, you and I are both Atheists Michael. We both have a myriad of religious beliefs that we don't fret over, because we don't believe them. The adherents of these religions feel you and I are arrogant, or blind, or deceived, or in rebellion, or ignorant - for not submitting to their faiths. We both have incredibly similar lists of religions we shrug at. My list is just one larger than yours.

    February 9 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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    Michael  I wouldn't consider myself an Atheist simply because I don't believe in someone else's religion...the reason I don't fret is because I don't simply subscribe to any man-made religion but rather to the 1 true God and his Son the only one true mediator Jesus who is alive and is currently interceding for us. It's not arrogance but rather confidence in knowing the Truth and embracing it...again for me to believe that we've been created for no specific purpose is not logical. Once the Bible is no longer considered as the inerrant Word of God, human reasoning and a multitude of differing theories become prevalent and expected since we are all created with a desire to worship the Creator. I do feel that because God has said it's impossible to please Him without Faith and that the righteous will live by Faith and that in the end the enemy is defeated by our Faith...that means to me that to truly obtainable an accurate revelation of God, Faith is required. Human reasoning and logic is not sufficient otherwise we wouldn't need God since we could obtain revelation on our own.

    February 9 at 1:07pm · Like
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    Brook  "but these go to 11"

    February 9 at 1:19pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman I know Mike... you think your religion is different and all the others are misfires. I have gotten versions of your last paragraph from many other faiths as well. Each of them special and different from the rest. I remember thinking that as well. It is like the picture of the bunny, that some people look at and see a duck... while others see both. In that sense, I once saw Christianity as a bunny... but because of some of my experiences I then saw it as a duck too.l Once you see the duck, you can't unsee it... and to a person who sees it only as a bunny, they can't understand why I can't see it ONLY in its special, singular form too. Each subgroup religion sees theirs as the one, unique, true item.
    
    http://sharepoint.chiles.leon.k12.fl.us/techportal/Brain%20Images/Brain%20Tools%20Pictures/bunny%20duck.jpg
    

    
    

    http://sharepoint.chiles.leon.k12.fl.us/techportal/Brain%20Images/Brain%20Tools%20Pictures/bunny%20d

    sharepoint.chiles.leon.k12.fl.us

    February 9 at 1:22pm · Like · Remove Preview
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    Michael  So do you want help to see it as a bunny again?  All of those other faiths worship a god that is no longer living...that to me would be a significant difference 

    February 9 at 2:50pm · Like
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    Andrew Hackman No, because that would require me to see unreality again.  I have come to regard reality as a friend.
    
    You say your deity is real/living, while all the others are not. They of course would say the opposite... and have... I have heard all of this "but the difference is our god is real" stuff from many a religion. To someone on the outside of all of it, none provide a compelling reason to spend any time pursuing it.

    February 9 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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